Languages of India • Hacker News Board

Re: Languages of India

#21

Post by jfk13 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

aatharuv wrote: post #14

India's definition of what is and what is not a language is highly politicized and highly idiosyncratic. Hindi and Urdu, by any reasonable linguistic definition are not separate languages. The official standards for both Hindi and Urdu, are both based on the form of the huge dialect continuum that spans North India and Pakistan, as spoken in Delhi. The only difference is that Urdu uses Persian and Arabic as inspirati…

> on the street level, the language is identical

Personal anecdote: when I first went to South Asia, I spent time in southern Pakistan and learned some basic Urdu. Then I spent time in north India, among Hindi speakers. The language I'd learned was immediately usable there, but my local friends could also tell where it came from -- and sometimes would tell me "Aha! yes, we know what you mean, but that's an Urdu word - in Hindi we say ...."

So even on a basic street level, I don't think it's true that they're identical. Both part of the same huge dialect continuum, yes, but they're slightly different points on it.

Whether to call them separate languages is as much a political question as a linguistic one, of course.

Re: Languages of India

#22

Post by vishnugupta » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

neuralzen wrote: post #2

When I visited Himachel Predesh I stayed a few days in a remote Himalayan village named Malana, sometimes referred to as "The Village of Taboos" due to all of the rules they have, largely concerning outsiders. Outsiders are not allowed to touch a Malanan person, touch or enter a building, or even speak the village language even if the outsider know some of it. They also claimed to be the world's oldest continuous dem…

It's a testimony to India's vastness and diversity that more than 99.5% Indians wouldn't have even heard about Malana let alone know about their unique culture and society.

Re: Languages of India

#23

Post by j0e1 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

peterburkimsher wrote: post #6

This may be a long shot, but could anybody help me find a Bible in Oriya? Last year I did some research into Unicode PUA characters and discovered some unencoded Taiwanese & Hakka characters. I wrote a proposal to add them to Unicode, and a blog post on Medium (called Hakka news). Now I've done the same for all languages on Bible.com, and I'm trying to compare with printed copies to know what the text should say.

You can find an online version here https://vachanonline.com/ .

If you are looking for the data, here is a repository: https://git.door43.org/BCS-BIBLE/Odiya-ULB-NT.BCS That is the New Testament only, the Old Testament can be found in the same way.

Re: Languages of India

#24

Post by linguanerd » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

aatharuv wrote: post #13

staticautomatic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd consider "Mumbai Hindi" a creole. It's nominally a dialect of Hindi/Urdu but it has a lot of Marathi mixed in, among other languages.

Mumbai Hindi is not a creole by any definition of linguistics. It is actually a dialect of Hindustani with Marathi and other languages mixed in. A Creole specifically occurs when two languages (usually unrelated) suddenly mix together, usually with a _greatly_ simplified (but consistent) grammar from the parent languages. It's not just the result of heavy borrowing. I don't believe that's happened for Mumbai Hindi.

I believe you are confusing a "creole" with a "pidgin".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin

> pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, its vocabulary and grammar are limited and often drawn from several languages. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups). Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as it is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between individuals or groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language

Re: Languages of India

#25

Post by j0e1 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

Here is a well respected source on this https://www.ethnologue.com/country/IN

Re: Languages of India

#26

Post by mc32 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

jfk13 wrote: post #21

aatharuv wrote: post #14

India's definition of what is and what is not a language is highly politicized and highly idiosyncratic. Hindi and Urdu, by any reasonable linguistic definition are not separate languages. The official standards for both Hindi and Urdu, are both based on the form of the huge dialect continuum that spans North India and Pakistan, as spoken in Delhi. The only difference is that Urdu uses Persian and Arabic as inspirati…

> on the street level, the language is identical Personal anecdote: when I first went to South Asia, I spent time in southern Pakistan and learned some basic Urdu. Then I spent time in north India, among Hindi speakers. The language I'd learned was immediately usable there, but my local friends could also tell where it came from -- and sometimes would tell me "Aha! yes, we know what you mean, but that's an Urdu word…

Maybe it’s akin to Galician and Portuguese or Galician and Spanish (Castilian). For the most part about 90% of everyday vocabulary is similar and understandable by each other yet may have some unique differences which are enough to be called separate languages, even if both resort to Classic Latin for high words and roots.

Re: Languages of India

#27

Post by staticautomatic » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

linguanerd wrote: post #24

aatharuv wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mumbai Hindi is not a creole by any definition of linguistics. It is actually a dialect of Hindustani with Marathi and other languages mixed in. A Creole specifically occurs when two languages (usually unrelated) suddenly mix together, usually with a _greatly_ simplified (but consistent) grammar from the parent languages. It's not just the result of heavy borrowing. I don't believe that's happened for Mumbai Hindi.

I believe you are confusing a "creole" with a "pidgin". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin > pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, its vocabulary and grammar are limited and often drawn from several languages. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak…

I'm not sure Mumbai Hindi would qualify as a pidgin either then since it's definitely the native language of a significant number of people.

Re: Languages of India

#28

Post by wenderen » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

vishnugupta wrote: post #22

neuralzen wrote: post #2

When I visited Himachel Predesh I stayed a few days in a remote Himalayan village named Malana, sometimes referred to as "The Village of Taboos" due to all of the rules they have, largely concerning outsiders. Outsiders are not allowed to touch a Malanan person, touch or enter a building, or even speak the village language even if the outsider know some of it. They also claimed to be the world's oldest continuous dem…

It's a testimony to India's vastness and diversity that more than 99.5% Indians wouldn't have even heard about Malana let alone know about their unique culture and society.

Can concur - I have never heard about Malana before reading that comment.

Re: Languages of India

#29

Post by sn41 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #10

Jagat wrote: post #7

It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. There are two official languages for union government communication - Hindi and English. I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language.

The original plan was, of course, to phase out English as a national language. This never happened, I suppose partially because while 'Hindustani' (as was) made sense as a symbol of unity during the time leading up to Independence, afterwards, especially as 'Hindi', it was seen more as a regional language (even if the region involved is large) and so not necessarily more deserving of official nation-level status than…

Besides the fact that in states like Kerala, for example, where you have nearly 92 percent literacy, declaring Hindi as official language will result in nearly 0 percent literacy. I think just like Charkha, and village-based self-sufficient economies, the idea of Hindi as a national language should be discarded as an idea whose time has gone.

Re: Languages of India

#30

Post by sn41 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

vikramkr wrote: post #3

The number of languages is stunning. Does anyone know if the number of languages is just the officially named languages or if it includes creoles? The language I speak is a creole of two languages and doesnt have a name or writing system really, and I'm curious to know how that is counted.

There were creole-like languages that existed in the South, usually when Dravidian culture was mixed with Sanskrit. One famous instance is "Manipravalam", which is a blend of Tamil-Malayalam with Sanskrit. I think in Manipravalam eventually led to modern Malayalam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipravalam