YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#181

Post by v7p1Qbt1im » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #56

empath75 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t censorship full stop. What you are advocating for is forcing YouTube to carry content that it doesn’t want to. I also think it’s grotesque to quote an anti nazi poem in defense of nazis.

I fully and without compromise support the right to free speech of all citizens, including "nazis" or whatever the overloaded term people are using these days. Rights aren't removed from citizens because you don't like their politics or beliefs. If you cheer when someone is deplatformed, remember that it is a short walk for your own ideas and beliefs to be deplatformed when the winds change.

Tolerance of intolerance may lead to the loss of tolerance. The NSDAP propaganda machine, for example specifically targeted this line of thinking.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#182

Post by root_axis » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

nv-vn wrote: post #141

root_axis wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting banned from YouTube is not a violation of individual rights. Forcing a company to host videos for free sounds like a violation of individual rights though.

No it's totally not a violation of anyone's rights, but that doesn't stop me from being able to oppose the idea. Like how I support drugs being legalized but I don't think everyone should start doing drugs.

> No it's totally not a violation of anyone's rights, but that doesn't stop me from being able to oppose the idea.

Well, I think everyone in this thread can at least agree that nothing should stop anyone from being able to oppose the idea.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#183

Post by themagician » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #91

Good. Online radicalism is a thing. To all the people here who are decrying this as “censorship”, remember that during the early 2010s, Islamic radicals were getting radicalized on YouTube by pretty benign sermons (Ex: Awlaki and his “tour of Paradise” lectures that inspired Boston 2013, fort hood and a bunch of other international attacks). YouTube removed all that out and I think Muslims getting radicalized on YouT…

Those looking to be radicalized will look at this as an example of the conspiracy. Look at QAnon. Or look at things like Conservapedia: https://www.conservapedia.com/Paul_Manafort

Go ahead and read that article on Paul Manafort. That's just one, mundane article—you could pick any. Understand that, true or false, it doesn't matter anymore—this is a narrative and a set of facts that around 100 million people in the United States now subscribe to.

We are way, way, way, way past removing a few thousand YouTube videos. That might have been marginally effective ten years ago. But there's been a decade of rhetoric now about how "they" control the media and will try and censor it. Sometimes it's "they" and sometimes it's (((they))).

Jews control the media, shadow governments, deep state, extreme hate against muslims, gays, etc.. This stuff is mainstream. Patrick Little ran for Senate in California, of all places, as an actual nazi and got 1.2% of the vote. That's 50,000+ people who went out of their way to vote for someone who was relatively unknown, all because his platform was based on removing Jews from the United States.

I don't know what the solution is, I really don't. But I DO know that removing videos from YouTube won't make it better. It may make it worse.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#184

Post by la_barba » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

chronial wrote: post #97

la_barba wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and encapsulate individuals in information bubbles that seem to validate and fail to challenge their views? Err, how do you know that the algorithm does this? And also, how do you know that people are not exposed to other views outside of YouTube. And lastly, why do you think its the job of an entertainment platform to "challenge" views?

> Err, how do you know that the algorithm does this? Youtube optimizes for watch time. Most people don't want to spend their afternoons having their views challenged. Any algorithm that properly optimizes for watch time of the masses will learn to validate views.

Right, we can all speculate. I'm asking for some objective proof, if any such is available. We can only propose a solution if we first demonstrate that the problem is real.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#185

Post by rukittenme » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

wnevets wrote: post #42

rukittenme wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because some people view free speech as more than a legal requirement. Its a philosophy of individual rights.

Why do you think you're right to free speech has anything to do with what you can say on someone else's property?

It doesn't. You can oppose YouTube's proposed censorship rules without subjecting them to legal repercussions. They are within their legal rights.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#186

Post by tootahe45 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

skrowl wrote: post #150

ausbah wrote: post #69

Here is the actual blog post: https://youtube.googleblog.com/2019/06/our-ongoing-work-to-t... Main points: >Removing more hateful and supremacist content from YouTube I think this is great, I see nothing of value being lost from channels whose whole schtick is to marginalize people's of a target group. >Reducing borderline content and raising up authoritative voices I do like attempts to curtail outright scams and mi…

> > Removing more hateful and supremacist content from YouTube > I think this is great, I see nothing of value being lost from channels whose whole schtick is to marginalize people's of a target group. Who gets to pick what's 'hateful' and 'supremacist' though? Did you think of that?

Who do you think?

Hint: If they go the Facebook route it will be various 'anti-hate' orgs which have openly called people like Trump and Ben Shapiro Nazis.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#187

Post by stcredzero » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #124

kgraves wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I FULLY support the right to free speech of all citizens, including "nazis" Careful there, you yourself might be a nazi by the left's logic. /s

Lefty here. Most of us understand the difference between a nazi and a fool.

Then how is Tim Pool labeled Alt Right? How is Ben Shapiro labeled Alt Right?

I'll be satisfied that the Left doesn't want to use corporate power and force to silence people, when the Left starts calling out the left for doing it.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#188

Post by bityard » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

AndrewStephens wrote: post #136

ravenstine wrote: post #107

I'm starting to think that comment sections on news sites are a really bad idea. At first I thought NPR and the like were cowards for removing theirs. It's bad enough that NYT can be pretty biased on its own, but the comment sections are always full of low-tier thinking that just push whatever narrative is currently in the Overton window. What I find distressing is how people remark that a telecom and advertising gia…

I was shocked when news sites started publishing comments as a matter of course. They worked so hard to research and create a 2000 word article that accurately reflects the world (in accordance to their editorial guidelines) using their good name - and then let fReEtHiNkErChAd and 2020BloodInTheStreets chime in at the end. It would be OK if they strictly moderated the comments, but few sites seem to do that.

> They worked so hard to research and create a 2000 word article that accurately reflects the world (in accordance to their editorial guidelines) using their good name

I'm not sure which news sites you read but most of the ones I've seen count only as journalism in a very vague and abstract sense. The information is thin, the writing poor, and major important questions go unanswered and ignored. If there is indeed any point to following the news on a daily basis (and there is good evidence to suggest there is not), the quality of most new sources is atrocious enough that none of it is worth my time.

(The exception here is the occasional piece of very well done investigative journalism.)

But, in regard to comments, they do it for the same reason that Hacker News or any other site has a comments section: community engagement. This is not necessary a bad thing but it comes with the responsibility to _moderate_ the resulting community and almost every site drops the ball on this.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#189

Post by lugg » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:09 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #126

chrisjc wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> White supremacy is a much bigger deal with a worse tail risk than Islamic extremism. Wait... you're saying that white supremacy is worse than islamic extremism? Is you opinion perhaps a manifestation of your perspective? I'm sure there are some people in Syria, Afghanistan, etc... that would disagree with you. BTW, I'm not saying one is worse than the other, just that they are both bad, both a problem, and both sho…

White supremacy was the cause for the worst wars of the 20th century. A white nationalist uprising in Europe would be deadlier (again) than Islamic extremists taking over most middle eastern nations due to the resources that will be available to them.

What do you mean white supremacy was the cause for WW1/2?

Edit, this is an honest question. It's my impression these wars were caused by nationalist movements. The first didn't even involve "whites" until later and it certainly had nothing to do with white supremacy.

The second world war got very white supremacy eventually but again, zero fucks to do with the cause. Hell America turned a blind eye to ALL of it until they got dragged in, that's how little it had to do with anything.

(Not some gun toting denier nazi here, it happened it was disturbing as fuck and it was a big deal, but please don't run around claiming this made up narrative)

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#190

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:09 PM UTC

nullbyte wrote: post #12

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #5

Note that it's not extreme views (like my adherence to the FSF). Nope, we're talking about "videos and channels that advocate for neo-Nazism, white supremacy and other bigoted ideologies". As much as I don't like censorship, views that advocate for extermination of other people can rightly fuck off.

YouTube gets to decide what a "bigoted ideology" is. That's a sweeping term that can be used as a catch-all for videos they don't like. I think that this will be bad for the platform overall -- an increase in censorship is never good.

Sure because targeted harassment, advocacy for the extermination of large groups, conspiracy theories like anti-vax BS that are actually killing people are just just fine

People against (limited) censorship usually react very quickly once it's their group that's being attacked (as some very famous subreddit does)