Cruel and unusual punishment. This is ridiculous and makes me feel ashamed to be an American.
And Guantanamo didn't?
It's not a contest.
The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
21–30 of 56 posts
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Founding Fathers were traitors so it is not exactly a surprise that it is hard to convict someone of treason in the US.
More accurately, they'd seen people charged and convicted of treason for nothing more than criticizing the government. This definition wouldn't have exempted them.
Still, it’s a nice illustration that treacherous behavior is not inherently immoral. I think you can generalize that to “Illegal behavior is not inherently immoral.”
This discussion is making me uncomfortable, though. Besides not really being HN material, I really in no way intended to compare Manning to the Founding Fathers. That would be ridiculous. I don’t think what he did was heroic, I think it was mostly stupid, probably immoral.
But I cannot understand that hunger for blood (I have never been able to understand that, no matter the crime). Locking him up for a few years (in a normal prison) and destroying his career will be pretty certain to discourage anyone who could be discouraged (those willing to violate the law in general don’t expect to be caught). Why punish someone without any positive effect, just for punishment’s sake? That’s what I don’t get.
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think we should leave a mint on his (non)pillow every night? The accusations against this military person, who voluntarily violated his oath to protect the nation's secrets, are very serious, and PRIVATE, not Mister, Manning is being held to the same standards any other military person is liable to, and is quite likely to face execution by firing squad.
The oath is to protect the U.S. Constitution, not the nation's secrets (except as follows under general orders and the UCMJ). > "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the order…
I'd argue that due to the leaked cables revealing lots of US Government propaganda, that his act served the constitution by allowing the democratic process to act after it had been hijacked by corrupt leaders.
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#24I'm finding it harder and harder these days to be proud of being an American.
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Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
More accurately, they'd seen people charged and convicted of treason for nothing more than criticizing the government. This definition wouldn't have exempted them.
Still, it’s a nice illustration that treacherous behavior is not inherently immoral. I think you can generalize that to “Illegal behavior is not inherently immoral.” This discussion is making me uncomfortable, though. Besides not really being HN material, I really in no way intended to compare Manning to the Founding Fathers. That would be ridiculous. I don’t think what he did was heroic, I think it was mostly stupid…
Suppose that the American public only supported the wars because it believed some of the lies that the cables revealed to be false.
If that were the case, then all the collateral damage caused by the wars happened against the will of the American people while at the same time it was done in the name of the American people.
So if Manning believed that to be the case, then he acted heroically. If you don't believe that to be the case, then it's reasonable that you don't consider his actions heroic.
I suppose that if the sort of leak Manning did isn't a good reason to risk life in prison, nothing is.
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#26Some people have been in solitary confinement for almost 40 years:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9839730...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/books/review/Letters-t-PRI...
(nb this is not meant as a comparison - Bradley Manning's treatment is most definitely inhumane)
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think we should leave a mint on his (non)pillow every night? The accusations against this military person, who voluntarily violated his oath to protect the nation's secrets, are very serious, and PRIVATE, not Mister, Manning is being held to the same standards any other military person is liable to, and is quite likely to face execution by firing squad.
The oath is to protect the U.S. Constitution, not the nation's secrets (except as follows under general orders and the UCMJ). > "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the order…
Hasn't he in fact disobeyed the orders of his superior officers by leaking the cables (which were marked "CONFIDENTIAL")?
There are a few reasons why disobeying such an order would be acceptable, but I doubt the military will take it easy on him unless it his obvious that every bit of info he leaked was directly related to some kind of war crime being carried out by his superiors.
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#28I suspect being jailed without trial is only going to confirm Manning's suspicion that he was calling bullshit on some seriously lawless people.
Kid's got stones the size of Texas.
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
And Guantanamo didn't?
It's not a contest.
I think icegreentea might be wondering why there is outrage now, when this sort of thing has been going on for really a long time.
eg. A fellow Australian (David Hicks) was held for years at Guantanamo without charge or trial. Rightly or wrongly, it feels like: no one cared then, why care now?
Re: The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Founding Fathers were traitors so it is not exactly a surprise that it is hard to convict someone of treason in the US.
I understand your point, but all governments are started by traitors and many rulers try to close the door behind them.
The most recent incarnation of German government wasn't started by traitors. It was started by essentially the people who were chosen by the winners of the last war.