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Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

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Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#471

Post by scarface74 »

mirimir wrote: post #468
la_barba wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean (officially) for an app to be approved? You seem to have your own interpretation.

You can read their policies as well as I can. Or better, perhaps. But my point is that Apple does have lots of rules about what apps can do, and can't do. And that it's been rather aggressive in applying those rules. If you search HN re some mix of ["Apple", "iOS", "app", "store", etc] you'll find complaints from developers about Apple removing their apps from its store. So, in that context, why were they silent for…

When an app asks for access to your location, you are given three choices - never, when using, or always. How technical do you have to be to know that when you allow an app access to your location - it has access to your location?

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#472

Post by manmal »

smt88 wrote: post #426
manmal wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, but which of the big tech companies does not use lock-in as a tool? Android Play Services, Google Photos, Amazon Prime, Facebook platform, any streaming service (library is „lost“ if you stop paying)..

I think you misunderstand what I meant by lock-in. Everything you just mentioned is not a lock-in for users. You can use your Android phone with non-Google operating systems without hacking your phone. The same is not true of iOS. If you buy an iPhone, which is a big investment for most people, then you must either use Apple's App Store or jailbreak.

> You can use your Android phone with non-Google operating systems without hacking your phone.

I‘m not sure that’s true for every Android phone.

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#473

Post by austinshea »

tfha wrote: post #314
nafizh wrote: post #22

Lots of negativity/skepticism here which is reasonable I would say given tech companies' abuse of our trust. I for one, am happy that Apple can afford to offer privacy as one of its strong suites. Whether they can do it because of their business model or not is moot IMO. Everyone is here to make money, I would rather have someone who doesn't have to sell every aspect of my life to do it.

The biggest problem that I have is that it's privacy built on a closed source platform that works extremely hard to wall users in and create substantial vendor lock-in. As someone who has tried multiple times to dip their toes into the Apple world, I can tell you that it's highly hostile to users who try to pick and choose how much they want to be an Apple citizen. If you don't agree to sign up for Apple cloud on the…

you're conflating issues.

feature lock-in, and not feeling empowered to ignore the cloud services associated with the cellular phone you bought, are concerns. they are not security concerns.

it's privacy built on a closed source platform. that's the point you're making.

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#474

Post by mirimir »

scarface74 wrote: post #471
mirimir wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can read their policies as well as I can. Or better, perhaps. But my point is that Apple does have lots of rules about what apps can do, and can't do. And that it's been rather aggressive in applying those rules. If you search HN re some mix of ["Apple", "iOS", "app", "store", etc] you'll find complaints from developers about Apple removing their apps from its store. So, in that context, why were they silent for…

When an app asks for access to your location, you are given three choices - never, when using, or always. How technical do you have to be to know that when you allow an app access to your location - it has access to your location?

All apps always that honest about it?

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#475

Post by davvolun »

behnamoh wrote: post #416
geofft wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is quite at odds with my experience with my iPhone, so I'm confused. I don't have an iCloud account. I'm not sure what "basic functions for a smartphone" I'm unable to use, but, I don't want my photos backed up to iCloud - I'll handle that on my own, for the photos I actually want somewhere other than on my local device. Everything otherwise seems to work. I don't use iMessage. I've ticked the little box that sa…

I think the GP meant that without an Apple ID, you basically can't install apps to begin with, and most of the OS's apps also require an Apple ID to work to their fullest. However, I don't share the same degree of skepticism as the GP.

In practice, if not in theory, I think Android works the same way. Yes, there are other app stores, and yes you can install untrusted, but in practice, most people just use the Play Store (requiring a Google account) and if they allow untrusted or use another app store, it's not the default.

I'm not arguing Apple and Google are the same, far from, but in this area, they seem the same to me for the majority of the population. (Android user)

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#476

Post by la_barba »

mirimir wrote: post #468
la_barba wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean (officially) for an app to be approved? You seem to have your own interpretation.

You can read their policies as well as I can. Or better, perhaps. But my point is that Apple does have lots of rules about what apps can do, and can't do. And that it's been rather aggressive in applying those rules. If you search HN re some mix of ["Apple", "iOS", "app", "store", etc] you'll find complaints from developers about Apple removing their apps from its store. So, in that context, why were they silent for…

>You can read their policies as well as I can. Or better, perhaps. >So, in that context, why were they silent for years about privacy risks of third-party apps?

My point was, you seem to have an interpretation of "Apple approved this app so therefore this means that X,Y, Z is true". I'm asking if that is actually what Apple is claiming.. officially, and also what X, Y, Z mean to you.

If you're claiming that "Approved third party app" == "no data ever leaves your phone" then this has never been the claim of Apple AFAIK.

>What I'm criticizing is the failure to clearly acknowledge limitations.

I see. But why would a company acknowledge their limitations in a commercial competitive marketplace? People who appreciate companies being honest about their limitations in such a public manner, and still end up buying their product are not in the majority, I think.

People try to avoid mentioning anything negative about their past in a job interview - which is kinda the position companies are in, when they go look for customers.

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#477

Post by autoexec »

aib wrote: post #464
autoexec wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that the system integration is so wonderful, it's that they make it extremely difficult to work outside of it for no reason. A few years ago I had a friend who wanted a song put on her iphone. I've never used one but I assumed I could do exactly what I've done with every other phone/MP3 player in the universe and just connect it to my laptop via USB and move the file over to some folder called "music" or som…

When was this? Because almost exactly the same story is what stopped me from moving into the Apple ecosystem, around 2010. The only difference was that the second, wiped phone was an empty "dev" phone, thankfully. It then caused Apple to ask for a series of upgrades to develop for, starting with XCode and ending with my MacBook Pro.

I thought it couldn't have been more than 3-4 years ago, but now you've got me doubting that. I also couldn't say which iphone it was or if it was up to date. I did pull down the what was the current version of itunes at least. Now I kinda wish I hadn't deleted the VM.

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#478

Post by mirimir »

la_barba wrote: post #476
mirimir wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can read their policies as well as I can. Or better, perhaps. But my point is that Apple does have lots of rules about what apps can do, and can't do. And that it's been rather aggressive in applying those rules. If you search HN re some mix of ["Apple", "iOS", "app", "store", etc] you'll find complaints from developers about Apple removing their apps from its store. So, in that context, why were they silent for…

>You can read their policies as well as I can. Or better, perhaps. >So, in that context, why were they silent for years about privacy risks of third-party apps? My point was, you seem to have an interpretation of "Apple approved this app so therefore this means that X,Y, Z is true". I'm asking if that is actually what Apple is claiming.. officially, and also what X, Y, Z mean to you. If you're claiming that "Approved…

> My point was, you seem to have an interpretation of "Apple approved this app so therefore this means that X,Y, Z is true".

There's arguably an analogy to potential limitation in DCMA safe harbor protection for sites moderate user posts. So if Apple didn't vet apps in its store, and only removed apps after complaints about malicious behavior, it would have no burden for disclosure.

But Apple clearly does vet apps. Aggressively so, given what I've read. So allowing apps that violate users' privacy does create a burden for disclosure. Unless you argue that Apple didn't know that they were doing that, which seems unlikely.

> I see. But why would a company acknowledge their limitations in a commercial competitive marketplace? People who appreciate companies being honest about their limitations in such a public manner, and still end up buying their product are not in the majority, I think.

Yes, for better or worse, that's how things are.

But if you play the "you can trust us" card, and are not in fact being totally honest, it's arguably worse than not promising anything.

Google did pretty much the same, with its "do no evil" mantra. But nobody believes that anymore. I was hoping that Apple was really trustable, but now I'm dubious.

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#479

Post by rmcpherson »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #421
dlivingston wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More hyperbole... > Do you want to open map links in an offline maps app? Impossible on the iPhone. Yes and no. The app launcher defaults to Maps. You can copy and paste addresses into any offline maps app. > Do you want to develop apps for your own device without handing over card details? Also impossible. Blatantly false. You can compile and sideload direct from Xcode to any iOS device without the need for a paid d…

> Yes and no. The app launcher defaults to Maps. You can copy and paste addresses into any offline maps app. Are you serious? Do you normally copy and paste links instead of clicking on them? You think it's reasonable for somebody to do this with every map link? How about map links inside native applications that aren't even copyable at all? > Blatantly false. You can compile and sideload direct from Xcode to any iOS…

This is true although you can turn off location sharing with apple for all these services, under Location Services->System Services. This includes Maps, Analytics, traffic, and Apple Maps improvement.

Re: Apple is now a privacy-as-a-service company

#480

Post by lern_too_spel »

rmcpherson wrote: post #479
lern_too_spel wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes and no. The app launcher defaults to Maps. You can copy and paste addresses into any offline maps app. Are you serious? Do you normally copy and paste links instead of clicking on them? You think it's reasonable for somebody to do this with every map link? How about map links inside native applications that aren't even copyable at all? > Blatantly false. You can compile and sideload direct from Xcode to any iOS…

This is true although you can turn off location sharing with apple for all these services, under Location Services->System Services. This includes Maps, Analytics, traffic, and Apple Maps improvement.

The point is that on Android and other platforms, you can get your location (or install an app, etc.) without telling anybody, while the supposedly privacy-focused Apple will only give you privacy if you essentially don't use your phone.
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