Earlier quoted context omitted.
(Cockroach Labs founder) The details are in the "additional usage grant" clause: https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/8acfe8ffd0028c... We decided to draw the line at whether the end user has direct control over table schemas. If users can specify the schema to be used, it's a database service and needs a license. If you're fitting everything into a generic schema (even if the user can specify things that lo…
I'm surprised everyone is saying it's clear, because I think it's sort of vague, so maybe someone can talk me out of it. :) If I build a service that lets customers define object types by dragging form widgets, and I turn that into a CRUD app backed by CockroachDB, and they just get to pick a CSS template and occasionally get Excel dumps, are they controlling the schema? They don't write any SQL, they certainly don't…
Relicensing CockroachDB
261–270 of 290 posts
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#262This is more validation of the threat that cloud providers (mainly AWS) are to businesses built around open source products. Yes, AWS and others are legally permitted by existing open source licenses to create SaaS versions of these open source products, but with cloud computing becoming an increasingly winner-take-all market, it leaves little room for the software's authors to generate revenue via hosted offerings o…
There simply has been no time where a startup doing SaaS of open source software (whether it's own or someone else's) had a strong route to profitability; this isn't an emergent property of evolving market conditions.
It's perhaps being acutely recognized because there was a particular time when companies started around open source software and, either initially or after a period with no clear business model, adopted “we’ll do SaaS of our core open source offering” as the whole, or a central piece, of their business model, and pretty quickly realized why, despite hosted SaaS being a commercial reality longer than cloud computing has even been an idea, SaaS of a particular open source software product—while sometimes part of the business of a broader SaaS provider—has never been a common successful standalone business model supporting companies centered around the open source offering, and certainly not for company is looking for the kind of growth modern VC-backed startups hope for.
They like to spin stories about AWS being predatory, evolving conditions in the cloud market, and attacking open source, but the real issue isn't with AWS, or cloud computing except insofar as that happens to the modern place where hosted SaaS is found, but that they've adopted a combination of SaaS-centric business model and growth expectations that would never have been realistic with open source software (and which I suspect they will next discover isn't much more realistic with their new relatively liberal proprietary license model either.)
> If you think that the Cockroach Labs, Redis Labs, Mongos, Elastics, etc., of the world provide a net benefit to the software world, I think you have to contend with the fact that there is going to be fewer such companies in the future if AWS keeps eating their lunch.
Software that serves as underlying infrastructure for other software has value to end-users that is with reduced by risks associated with being proprietary, and but also has value to it't is reduced by the non-exclusivity that exists when it is not. That's fairly obvious, and an intrinsic problem for such software being efficiently provided in a basically capitalist system, but unless one’s ideological preconceptions make it difficult to accept that capitalism may not always be as perfectly efficient as it would seem to be in theory under the kind of ideal assumptions sometimes encountered in Econ 101 classes, or unless one has invested in firms without business models which ignore this dilemma, I don't see how that is anything to “contend” lwith.
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
But you're essentially saying if you want to compete with AWS, you have to offer every feature and integration they offer. Good luck to any startup attempting that.
I wonder if a startup opportunity exists to be a B2B only provider that has all the infrastructure trappings of an AWS or Google Cloud, but never selling directly your services on the open market, but instead selling your services contractually to other businesses (in a sense, not sure if my terms are lining up here). If this is a million dollar idea, I'm just going to give it away I guess, so here goes nothing in ex…
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There's nothing stopping people from using BSL-licensed software on AWS/GCP/etc., as long as they aren't running it for the purposes of offering a hosted version of that software. There is. This is no longer an OSI license, which means it's no longer on the automatic whitelist. Using CockroachDB now requires running through legal, which really makes me reconsider just using the hosted whatever offering, despite the…
that's kind of a "for now" issue. eventually these will become common enough that things will shake out, but it will take years.
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem with this argument is that there has always been a before and after. IE This is not the first business model issue OSS has dealt with. For example: It seems ridiculous now, but at one point authors were significantly squeezed by commercial distros offering support and feature work directly to customers for their packages. (And this was even a similar kind of disintermediation applied to authors as you see…
> The underlying issue here in this one is that people (apparently so far!) want to use AWS/GCP/etc more than they want to use mongo, redis, cockroach, or any particular technology. There's nothing stopping people from using BSL-licensed software on AWS/GCP/etc., as long as they aren't running it for the purposes of offering a hosted version of that software. And Amazon/Google/etc. still really wants to offer hosted…
Or offers a managed service of one of the open source products competing in the same space. Or acquires one of the existing proprietary alternatives and offers it as a managed service. Perhaps even while paying Cockroach’s license fees, offering the most popular hosted Cockroach, and still encouraging customers to shift over time to lower-cost alternatives (Amazon already does this with Windows and SQL Server; no one trick pony first-party SaaS platform is going to be anywhere near what Microsoft has deployed against AWS.)
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
Making a project that was Open Source, not Open Source anymore, is hardly a "good move". I mean, it might be a good financial move for Cockroach and their VC's, but I have a hard time seeing it as good for the world in general.
> Making a project that was Open Source, not Open Source anymore, is hardly a "good move" Why? You offer no explanation. I think it is a good middle ground, it has a very targeted restriction and reverts back to Open Source after 3 years.
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#267Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
that's kind of a "for now" issue. eventually these will become common enough that things will shake out, but it will take years.
Hasn’t happened for GPL3, and I would bet it won’t happen for these either. More importantly, the one-click solutions offered by amazon, GCP, etc. will always be the GPL2/MIT/etc licensed products, while the others will require you to either install and manage on your own, or sign up separately outside your main cloud provider. This will be an additional point of friction (potentially more so than the licensing woes)…
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Indeed. If AWS makes a load of money out of Cockroach's hard work, why shouldn't Cockroach get a slice of it? They should have thought about that before benefitting from it being open source.
> They should have thought about that They have thought about it! That's why they are using the BSL. I note that they are using a time-delayed open source approach (after 3 years it becomes open source) which I understand Stallman has endorsed in the past.
Starting an open source project, taking contributions from the community and getting popularity and traction because you're open source, and then closing it again because you're so popular Amazon might "steal" your revenue? That's just abusing the community.
Re: Relicensing CockroachDB
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cockroach Labs took $53M in VC: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/cockroach-labs For the scale of the required exit, they would need a very large support contract, and at that point it would be easier for Google / Amazon to just build their own solution, hire their own people to provide support and development, or just let market forces do their thing. The fundamental shift now is that a lot of open source soft…
I agree with that and it is one of the main reasons why I personally don't care for Open Source and make a huge distinction between it and Free Software.