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SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

sec.gov

251–260 of 343 posts

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#251
post #2

"The complaint further alleges that Kik marketed the Kin tokens as an investment opportunity. Kik allegedly told investors that rising demand would drive up the value of Kin, and that Kik would undertake crucial work to spur that demand, including by incorporating the tokens into its messaging app, creating a new Kin transaction service, and building a system to reward other companies that adopt Kin. At the time Kik…

Honestly, that sounds a lot less scammy than nearly every other ICO out there. Kik is an established company with a social network product used by millions. Given their market position, I think their idea isn't totally farfetched. I could be missing some aspects that indicate it is a total scam, but just from that paragraph alone (which is all I know about the topic), I could see warranted interest from investors. Lo…

The only times I saw people use kik for anything is when I was in the mood for a little recreational degeneracy and made the mistake to browse 4chan's /b/ and suddenly spammy kik threads pop up left and right advertising "trades" "no rules" "teens".

That is not to say, this is the only kik users, it's just the only instances I anecdotally saw people advertise their kik handles, and it didn't leave a good impression. This ICO stuff made me think of that.

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#252
post #220
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have nothing and rob a bank, should I get get to keep half? Why should the penalty bankrupt me?

No, that's a much different situation. Kik could have acted legally and still made a profit on this idea, although maybe less. In your example, clearly there is no "legal" way in which you could have robbed the bank

In their own words they couldn't make a profit...

As for their being no legal way to rob a bank, there are a whole bunch of folks from the 2009 mortgage crises who would beg to differ.

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#253

Kik Responds To SEC Complaint > Eileen Lyon, Kik's General Counsel commented, "For the reasons set forth in our Wells Submission, the SEC's complaint against Kik is based on a flawed legal theory. Among other things, the complaint assumes, incorrectly, that any discussion of a potential increase in value of an asset is the same as offering or promising profits solely from the efforts of another; that having aligned i…

Well they certainly have the money to fight the SEC in court. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out, although I'm not very optimistic for Kik.

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#254
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They “delivered” only because they sold wheelbarrows to the 49ers. As gold rush history will tell you, most fortunes were made by merchants not miners. Name a non-ICO-infrastructure ICO that isn’t a scam.

Ethereum as infrastructure is also a dicey proposition. It works, slowly, but it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of demand for “dapps” outside ICO tokens, gambling, and the odd Ponzi scheme. The smart contract revolution at this point is complete vapor ware.

A lot of the building blocks for mainstream use don't exist, but could conceivably emerge in time given Ethereum is Turing Complete.

There are projects with a very high potential to provide those building blocks in development right now, like Matter Labs' use of zero-knowledge proofs to scale Ethereum:

https://matterlabs.dev/

But yea it's all very speculative right now. I speculate it will work, but it'll depend on what the various players in the industy actually accomplish.

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#255

This was inevitable. As I said two years ago[1], just listen to Kik's own words: "When we looked at raising another round [of VC funding], we asked ourselves how do we answer the question about how we will become a profitable business [...] We didn’t have an answer we really believed." ... so instead they decided to raise money from unsophisticated investors in an unregulated market, where nobody asks such inconvenie…

LOL

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's still the medium of choice for monstrous people in 2019. You posted a link from 2017

Yes I did. Which is why I asked if they've changed. And then today, in 2019, I did a search for "Kik child porn" and found several brand new convictions for people trading child porn over Kik from 2019. So I said "still the medium of choice". Would you like me to post all those 2019 links for you? I presumed you were capable of finding them yourself.

Sure why not? Also your initial wording was vague, there's no need to be so angry. Just "here's some links for proof" and move on.

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#257
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not to be that guy, but… username checks out! (inb4 hn is turning into reddit)

Yea I believe that consensual interactions, whether it's in the civil sphere, with high-risk sexual practices, or the economic sphere, with high-risk investments, should not face any government prohibition.

I'd argue that for the interaction to be truly consensual, both parties must be fully informed about the risks and rewards of the interaction that they are choosing to participate in. My reading of the SEC press release leads me to believe that the primary reason for requiring filing with the SEC for a sale of this nature is to ensure that all relevant information is available for the parties involved, thus allowing the interaction to be truly consensual.

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#258
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not to be that guy, but… username checks out! (inb4 hn is turning into reddit)

Yea I believe that consensual interactions, whether it's in the civil sphere, with high-risk sexual practices, or the economic sphere, with high-risk investments, should not face any government prohibition.

we ran that experiment in 2017 and everyone got rekt

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The regulations indeed exist because fraud in this vein was prevalent and it made it difficult to compete if you weren't defrauding investors.

Do you have any evidence for that? There are other ways of addressing fraud besides violating people's right to freely contract with other consenting adults, like punishing those who commit fraud to deter others from committing the crime, and public education campaigns. The idea that the government has a right to deem a certain class of investors as "unsophisticated", and thus better off deprived of the right to deci…

> The idea that the government has a right to deem a certain class of investors as "unsophisticated", and thus better off deprived of the right to decide for themselves what to invest in, and prohibit an entire class of interactions, on the basis that too many instances of that class are fraudulent, upends basic principles of liberal society.

Counterpoint: The government declares which investors are savvy or not ("accreditation" based on the rules) only partly because they believe certain people are unqualified to make certain investment decisions based on knowledge. The other major factor is whether an investor is more likely to lose amounts material to their survival.

Two items to consider:

1. A person making enough spare income to take such risks is someone who likely won't suffer nearly as much if the risk goes south. Someone making 200,000/y (ok, excluding SF/NY since apparently legislators hardcoded a value like idiots) or who has 1mil assets after the primary home will probably feel pretty bad if a 25,000 investment goes to zero, but they probably won't be going on public assistance.

2. That said, regarding qualification to actually make the decision, a person who has the net worth or the income flow to qualify for accreditation may also be in a better position to invest in concepts being developed by people with past track records or increased odds of success. This may be a general result of being connected to such people (what you might call "the old boys' club," but this can broadly apply to any network of people) or may simply stem from being better positioned to evaluate/diligence the concept e.g. because they're applying their specialized knowledge to evaluate a new idea which they feel has value.

---

Idealism is one thing, but if you're more likely to be preyed upon because you don't have the knowledge or connections to make more informed investment decisions and are more willing to increase the tax burden on your fellow person as a result of investment decisions gone sour, that's where the government steps in to protect the general population.

As a reminder, this is one of the few responsibilities the government actually has in any society, even the most libertarian.

Anyway, this isn't really a debate. If you disagree, you're empowered to do what you wish; I've made my counterpoint above and don't intend to go further.

Re: SEC Charges Kik With Conducting $100M Unregistered ICO

#260
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not to be that guy, but… username checks out! (inb4 hn is turning into reddit)

Yea I believe that consensual interactions, whether it's in the civil sphere, with high-risk sexual practices, or the economic sphere, with high-risk investments, should not face any government prohibition.

Likely that the majority here agrees in principal, but those things you're describing are different practices.

You might liken an underground ICO to a bug chaser party where some participant doesn't even know what that is.

That kind of stuff is a real problem, and there are plenty of scenarios where government prohibition isn't overstepping. In those cases, we're not protecting you from yourself, but rather protecting everyone else from you and your poor decisions that make your misfortune a burden to society.

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