Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#261

Post by zaroth » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #175

zaroth wrote: post #12

In 2013, the number of Chinese students returning to China after graduating hit 90%. [1] It used to be more like 9 in 10 would remain in the US to work. If foreign graduate students are staying and working in the US, it’s probably a net benefit hosting them in US schools, even though it drives up demand and therefore tuition costs for US citizens. If 8 or 9 out of 10 are returning to China, better to keep the spot fo…

What do you recommend the EU should do with all the US students that come here to study for basically free, because they can't afford it back home? We have like 5000 Americans studying in Germany alone. Do you think we should send them back home because they're not gonna work here anyways? Do you not believe someone should give those young people an education just because they deserve a chance in life? Can we not do…

Don’t non-EU students have to pay tuition fees? If not, they certainly should.

No I don’t think an expensive university education is a “right” that these young people should be given for a chance in life.

There are copious cheap public options for someone who is looking to build a marketable skill, and I think those options are already highly subsidized.

But more to the point, I don’t think hosting 350k Chinese foreign students in US universities where 90% of them will return to China to compete against American companies and American jobs is something that the US should be doing on principle.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#262

Post by zaroth » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #35

zaroth wrote: post #12

In 2013, the number of Chinese students returning to China after graduating hit 90%. [1] It used to be more like 9 in 10 would remain in the US to work. If foreign graduate students are staying and working in the US, it’s probably a net benefit hosting them in US schools, even though it drives up demand and therefore tuition costs for US citizens. If 8 or 9 out of 10 are returning to China, better to keep the spot fo…

I find this line of thinking so odd, because nobody ever says “exporting American {cars/corn/computers} to China drives up demand and costs to US citizens.” The worst-case scenario here is that education is economically just equivalent to an export, but that’s still a pretty great scenario! Especially since it’s an export that doesn’t pollute, supports high-paying labor, perpetuates the global premium associated with…

But it’s not anything like exporting a consumable product.

It’s exporting expertise which is used to outcompete the US and eliminates US jobs and challenges profitability of US companies.

It’s obviously not without benefits in terms of establishing clout of US universities (and maybe even keeping many of those programs running) and for the people that do stay those are bright and productive immigrants which are going to go on to create value and jobs in the US economy.

The problem is when almost all of the students aren’t remaining to work in the US and the ones that do, you worry if they aren’t involved in some form of espionage for the Motherland.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#263

Post by chmod775 » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #261

chmod775 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you recommend the EU should do with all the US students that come here to study for basically free, because they can't afford it back home? We have like 5000 Americans studying in Germany alone. Do you think we should send them back home because they're not gonna work here anyways? Do you not believe someone should give those young people an education just because they deserve a chance in life? Can we not do…

Don’t non-EU students have to pay tuition fees? If not, they certainly should. No I don’t think an expensive university education is a “right” that these young people should be given for a chance in life . There are copious cheap public options for someone who is looking to build a marketable skill, and I think those options are already highly subsidized. But more to the point, I don’t think hosting 350k Chinese fore…

> Don’t non-EU students have to pay tuition fees? If not, they certainly should.

They pay "nothing" just like every other student in Germany. Nothing here means "less than 500 bucks of (administrative) fees / year". The added benefits that you get with being a student (for instance free public transport) generally already outweigh that fee though.

> No I don’t think an expensive university education is a “right” that these young people should be given for a chance in life.

Education is actually a recognized human right under the "International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights" treaty. Exactly 169 Countries have signed and ratified the treaty, but the US are not one of them (signed but not ratified).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_education

Because I believe in that right myself, I'll gladly pay for the education of every US American university student (and others) in Germany with my taxes until the US steps up its game. Curiously I'm paying for my own education that way too.

> I don’t think hosting 350k Chinese foreign students in US universities where 90% of them will return to China to compete against American companies and American jobs is something that the US should be doing on principle.

In total there are almost 400,000 international students enrolled in Germany. For free.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#264

Post by Gatsky » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

flukus wrote: post #124

Gatsky wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia, all Chinese students were allowed to stay if they so wished after Tiananmen, the Prime Minister at the time made it happen. I think that was a proud moment for Australia. Times have changed, immigration is now a particularly obscene political tool, as is climate change.

And now the Australian University industry is nothing more than a scam that will print degrees for the highest bidders.

That’s a bit much. I’ve worked with many international students that were just as good as anyone, and enrich university life and the academic community immensely. Social and traditional media get on the howler about this issue, but it isn’t fair to cast it as a problem that only exists with international students.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#265

Post by zwaps » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 11:27 PM UTC

Jommi wrote: post #206

zwaps wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that it isn't a good university, I mean I hear decent things, but two Nobel laureates is really not that much for a top university. Many local European universities have more.

How is it not a good university? Is it solely measured on Nobel Laureates?

Read again.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#266

Post by flukus » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 11:49 PM UTC

Gatsky wrote: post #264

flukus wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now the Australian University industry is nothing more than a scam that will print degrees for the highest bidders.

That’s a bit much. I’ve worked with many international students that were just as good as anyone, and enrich university life and the academic community immensely. Social and traditional media get on the howler about this issue, but it isn’t fair to cast it as a problem that only exists with international students.

> That’s a bit much. I’ve worked with many international students that were just as good as anyone

They get screwed over more than anyone by the lax standards when their resumes get dropped in the international student bin.

> Social and traditional media get on the howler about this issue,

This is from personal experience working with graduates and managing our intern program, which I wasted a great deal of my personal time on. Social media is more focused on the abuses of the student visa that is also rampant.

> but it isn’t fair to cast it as a problem that only exists with international students.

It's certainly not exclusive to international students, but they pay a lot more and universities have a financial incentive to keep them studying regardless of the grades.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#267

Post by rchaud » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 11:58 PM UTC

ashelmire wrote: post #259

rchaud wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Freeing up those spots" implies that US students are barred from competing for grad school places or that international students have some advantage that domestic students do not.

> international students have some advantage that domestic students do not. They often do have more money. And rampant cheating. But regardless, Chinese students can attend any university in China or the US, while an American cannot realistically attend school in China. Obviously that means China is going to have a brighter educational future, as they use our system to advance their own.

Money doesn't make a difference in grad school because everybody is there on some kind of fellowship or research grant. Certainly no international student I've ever met, Chinese or otherwise has paid a cent of tuition past undergrad. Only exceptions would be medical school, MBA and specialist MSc programs offered through business schools.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#268

Post by msie » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government. For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different tha…

I don’t know what you are arguing for but let’s have some perspective here. Chinese people have been immigrating to North America for over a hundred years and have been successful despite differences in culture etc. It was more difficult back then too.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#269

Post by ekianjo » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 3:48 AM UTC

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #252

ekianjo wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said compared to college. Not in absolute terms.

Yes that was understood.

So... can you point me to a source showing high school students having years of debt?

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#270

Post by bayesian_horse » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:39 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #131

bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government. For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different tha…

So because the societies are so different and have limited contact, should we seek to cut off one of the few opportunities young people from borderline enemy countries across the world have to interact, or give them a space to interact freely? I know most Chinese students at my university kept to their in-group and never interacted with anyone else. I also know loads who found a new culture that they felt comfortable…

I did not offer any opinion on what actions to take in that matter, nor do I have one at the moment.

I am generally in favor of international exchanges and people being allowed to go where they think they need to go. I'm not in favor of cheating your hosts.