Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#181

Post by ummonk » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:12 AM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #33

chuckgreenman wrote: post #16

In Cincinnati, it's illegal to ride a bike on a sidewalk, which makes sense, it's not very pleasant for the cyclist or pedestrians. The result is that bicyclers ride in the street. You'll regularly get harassed for riding in the street, even when you're all the way to the right, or people will just open their door right into the lane when they street park. It's really difficult to travel with bicycles safely in a med…

> You'll regularly get harassed for riding in the street, even when you're all the way to the right I don't even understand the hate for riding in the middle. If a driver were to pass someone riding on the right, he would (should) have to move so far over that the next lane has to be empty. That is the same as if the bicyclist was in the middle. Riding to the right only invites cars to squeeze past. Take the lane, it…

Roadways are usually wide enough that a car can pass through the middle, leaving plenty of space for a cyclist on the right, and still avoid colliding with an oncoming car if that oncoming car moves to the right of its lane.

Of course, even though the above is possible, drivers often don't leave enough space for cyclists, so cyclists should ride in the middle to force cars to not try to squeeze past.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#182

Post by DoingIsLearning » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:14 AM UTC

I read a lot of hostile views towards bike lanes and segregating bicycle traffic and I think it really contrasts with the mind shift I found when moving to the Netherlands.

All the strong views in the comments seem to imply that there is an I "the cyclist" as an urban tribe, like skaters or petrol heads. In the Netherlands there obviously are cyclists in lycra and carbon fiber bicycles, but for the most part, there are people who-happen-to-be-on-a-bicycle.

I don't change clothes to cycle to work, I don't sweat, and don't curse cars. But I also am not a "cyclist" I just get on a bike to get to work.

I think that, specially in an urban environment, there is a need to embrace the mindset of the bicycle, as a thing you use, as opposed to a thing that you somehow identify with.

Yes there are trade-offs, yes you will not be able to hit 30km/h speeds on your urban commute. Yes you will have to slow down due to small children and elderly.

But if you rationalise this and break it down, the downside of not being sanguine through an urban route on a race bicycle really translate into anything between 3 to 7 min extra commute time (depending on long you travel on an urban setting). That's the time you spend ordering a latte.

The upside is that literally everyone and their dog can use a bicycle around the city and be safe.

It also furthers the safety in my opinion because there is now a much greater chance that your average sedan car driver is now occasionaly also using a bicycle and is far more mindful and respectful of human fragility on a bicycle.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#183

Post by provolone » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

gpm wrote: post #20

fhbdukfrh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your general sentiment, but don't think people on electric bikes are going to improve the situation, rather make it much, much worse based on the electric bike share pilot in my city. Someone who owns their ebike might be better, but those on shared bikes are a danger to everyone and never wear a helmet.

Wearing a helmet increases your chance of death on a bike according to the statistics. I personally don't, I feel less safe wearing one. I can't locate cars as accurately with audio with one on my head, the extra weight makesy head turn slower, and I think subconsciously left often. Drivers pass more aggressively and illegally (most drivers passing break the law here that requires a meter seperation when passing a cy…

In my experience as a courier and in dirt jump, the helmet puts extra weight on the head and neck at the time of impact. This can make it harder to tuck and roll. Also the size of the helmet adds a few inches, making it harder to avoid the earth/pavement.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#184

Post by maaaats » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 8:21 AM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #181

matsemann wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'll regularly get harassed for riding in the street, even when you're all the way to the right I don't even understand the hate for riding in the middle. If a driver were to pass someone riding on the right, he would (should) have to move so far over that the next lane has to be empty. That is the same as if the bicyclist was in the middle. Riding to the right only invites cars to squeeze past. Take the lane, it…

Roadways are usually wide enough that a car can pass through the middle, leaving plenty of space for a cyclist on the right, and still avoid colliding with an oncoming car if that oncoming car moves to the right of its lane. Of course, even though the above is possible, drivers often don't leave enough space for cyclists, so cyclists should ride in the middle to force cars to not try to squeeze past.

Yeah, the problem is just that when it's space, the zoom by in a high speed. Taking the lane and then yielding will force them to overtake at a reasonable speed, at least.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#185

Post by stefs » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

u801e wrote: post #133

Xylakant wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that protected bike lanes are not designed for you or me, I prefer riding in traffic, too. They are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. For them the trade off works: spend a little more time on turns and crossings, be safe from cars overtaking close. In the end, it doesn’t even really matter if their fear is rational or not, it prevents that demographic from c…

> The Dutch have that figured out. The problem is that the vast majority of motorists do not have significant experience riding a bicycle, so they don't know where to look for cyclists and will end up colliding with them when they pop out from behind parked cars within 30 feet of the intersection (when traveling at 20 feet per second).

i can confirm this from my own experience. didn't use a bike to get around the city for years, but once i started, my (car) driving style changed noticeably.

for example, i do a lot more shoulder checks to the right. i'm a very fast cyclist and sometimes overtake drivers on the right (when riding in the bike lane). some drivers can't fathom a cyclist being faster than them.

the other thing is mirror checks when opening the car door. i even started to reprimand other drivers or passengers (depending on my role) for not checking. even though i'm riding fast i'm trying to be safety conscious and always assume a driver in a dangerous spot hasn't seen me; this is impossible for suddenly opening car doors.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#186

Post by cr1895 » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #158

Tsubasachan wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bicycle helmets aren't completely unknown, I see kids under 10 wearing them more. Cycling in the US isn't dangerous because of traffic or speed. Amsterdam has that in abundance! Its that American automobile drivers simply don't see bicycles let alone understand what they can and cannot do. Anything that isn't a car or truck does not compute.

I think it is the law for kids to wear helmets in the Netherlands until they are 12, but I'm not really clear about that.

It isn't.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#187

Post by himeexcelanta » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

borkt wrote: post #63

himeexcelanta wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious which city you’re in. Not that it’s this simple, but it seems to me that any one of those electric bike-share users would otherwise be contributing to localized and global pollution and congestion through the use of a car. Additionally, the lack of infrastructure (i.e. protected/expanded bike lanes) would might explain why it seems like those cyclists “a danger to everyone”.

No, I saw a an ebike blow out of golden gate park against a red and cause a 3 car accident in SF a few weeks back, despite only spending a few days in SF each year. At least one or more of the cars were likely totalled and would contribute much more significantly to waste/emissions. I also saw a lot of people on bikes/scooters using sidewalks and crosswalks like their personal fast lines and ignoring signs and signal…

I live in SF. Agree that there are many reckless scooter and e-bike users. To offer another anecdote, everyday I see Uber/Lyft drivers stopped in the middle of traffic, parked in red zones, and driving 10-15 mph under the speed limit. Either way, San Francisco has a big problem of actually enforcing the rule of law for traffic violations.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#188

Post by u801e » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #174

u801e wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do drivers of cars deal with driving among trucks and buses?

Cars can match their speed.

Though it's often the heavier vehicles that can't match speed, but we don't routinely hear of cars rear ending buses or trucks (even with a 50 mph speed difference).

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#189

Post by Xylakant » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

u801e wrote: post #133

Xylakant wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that protected bike lanes are not designed for you or me, I prefer riding in traffic, too. They are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. For them the trade off works: spend a little more time on turns and crossings, be safe from cars overtaking close. In the end, it doesn’t even really matter if their fear is rational or not, it prevents that demographic from c…

> The Dutch have that figured out. The problem is that the vast majority of motorists do not have significant experience riding a bicycle, so they don't know where to look for cyclists and will end up colliding with them when they pop out from behind parked cars within 30 feet of the intersection (when traveling at 20 feet per second).

The Dutch have that figured out, too. There’s so many bicycles around that you practically have to expect them everywhere any time. More bicycles make all bicycles safer.

Intersections of car lanes and bike lines should also be designed in such a fashion that the lanes meet mostly at a right angle. Sharp turns and buffer spaces. A sharp turn slows the car traffic and the right angle at the intersecting point makes it easy to check for crossing (cycle) traffic. See for example this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#190

Post by justnotworthit » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

fooblitzky wrote: post #145

u801e wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a bike commuter who's not exactly in Tour de France riding condition You don't need to be in "Tour de France" condition to take the lane on city streets (discounting your use of hyperbole). I do so all the time and intersection navigation is far easier when taking the lane than it is when forced to ride all the way to the right. Pedestrian style infrastructure is suitable for pedestrian speeds (3 to 6 mph), not…

Would you be comfortable with children or elderly people taking the lane though? "Vehicular cycling" has been around since the 1970's, and in practice it doesn't work. Protected bike infrastructure gets more people cycling, of all ages and abilities, because the number one reason people cite for not cycling is not feeling safe around cars. Telling them "you're really safer in the lane" doesn't work to allay their fea…

Since the 1970s? How did people, including children, ride bikes before then?

1950s PSA about children riding their bike like driving a car (worth watching the whole thing for nostalgia): https://youtu.be/fDm6jiQz5BY?t=206