Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#111

Post by btrettel » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

nogridbag wrote: post #108

btrettel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the light turned green he took forever to get going and even after 20 seconds he was still going dangerously slow so I honked him and felt like a jerk. I did not understand why he simply didn't use the bike lane. Cyclist here. My experience suggests that when a cyclist takes the lane, they're doing so because they decided it was the best option for them. I wish more drivers would give them the benefit of the d…

I concur the cyclist must have chosen that lane for a reason which is why I felt in the wrong but none of the reasons listed seem applicable in this case. Also, are pedestrians walking into bike lanes a valid reason not to use bike lanes? For every pedestrian blindly walking into bike lanes staring at their phone I see an equal number of cyclists going at high speeds through pedestrian crossings (9 times out of 10 wh…

> Also, are pedestrians walking into bike lanes a valid reason not to use bike lanes?

Depends on the location. Some places have high concentrations of bad pedestrians. In Austin there's one bike lane in particular where cyclists need to pay close attention to pedestrians, who often treat the bike lane there as an extension of the sidewalk.

> For every pedestrian blindly walking into bike lanes staring at their phone I see an equal number of cyclists going at high speeds through pedestrian crossings

Some cyclists are awful too. If the cyclists are bad enough then I might avoid the bike lane myself...

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#112

Post by 05 » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #34

gpm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wearing a helmet increases your chance of death on a bike according to the statistics. I personally don't, I feel less safe wearing one. I can't locate cars as accurately with audio with one on my head, the extra weight makesy head turn slower, and I think subconsciously left often. Drivers pass more aggressively and illegally (most drivers passing break the law here that requires a meter seperation when passing a cy…

Are you wearing a motorcycle helmet? My bike helmet doesn't touch my ears and weighs around 300g, about 5% of the 5 kg weight of a human head -- I can't tell the difference between turning my head with and without a helmet, but it doesn't matter much on the road since I use a rear-view mirror on my glasses so I look behind me much more often than if I had to turn my head every time.

Those 5% have larger radius of gyration than the brain, though..

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#113

Post by steelframe » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

kashyapc wrote: post #65

[I realize you can't quite compare American and European roads in the context of bicycling, given the huge surface area in the US. Still, a small anecdote.] I live in a small Western European city with a serious biking culture. As an everyday bicycler, lately I was happy to see some pleasant incremental changes (to the already pretty good infrastructure) for bicyclers and pedestrians: they are turning streets where c…

> fully painted in maroon, with some wooden signboards on the side, reading: "This is a bicycle-first path, cars must remain behind bicyclers".

As a regular bicycle commuter in the United States who has also ridden a bicycle on Amsterdam's infrastructure, converting a handful of existing roads into "bicycle-first" seems to me like the best solution for dense cities that already have serious congestion problems.

People need to feel safe. If they don't feel safe, they won't want to do something. One of the things that really makes cyclists feel unsafe is when motorists are constantly trying to aggressively "get around" them. This often results in close passes and right hooks. Not to mention the animosity.

A strictly enforced policy of "This is a bicycle-first path, cars must remain behind bicyclers" on a handful of narrow well-connected roads leading into and out of the city center would be brilliant. It would address the complexity and cost of building new bicycle infrastructure such as separated bicycle tracks. I would additionally reduce the speed limit to that of a typical bike trail: 15 mph.

It wouldn't ban cars from these existing roads. It would simply establish a norm for those roads. That is, that a bicyclist is a first-class citizen on them. No bicyclist on that road will feel that they're "holding up" traffic behind them, because cars slowing down to the speed of a bicycle would be the norm. And no motorists will pull dangerous maneuvers to try to pass them or cut them off on those roads, or they'll pay a hefty penalty when caught doing that.

Motorists who want to go faster and pass cyclists can use all of the existing "motorist-first" roads for that. With the increased number of people riding bicycle instead of driving because of how much more nice those "bicycle-first" roads are, perhaps that will make the other "motorist-first" roads less congested.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#114

Post by atg_gcg_aca_aca » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #107

atg_gcg_aca_aca wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhhh... women?

Yes women. They’re an underrepresented demographic among cyclists where bike infrastructure is lacking. Here’s stats for the UK for example https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics here’s an article discussing the topic https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/mar/0... Here’s data for SF https://w4c.org/case-study/women-and-biking-case-study-use-s...

> (Bike lanes) are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women.

Agreed women are underrepresented, but I don't think your statement is helping change the perception that women aren't real cyclists. Bike lanes are designed for people with less active riding style. Elderly people, kids, women, and men.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#115

Post by ben7799 » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #110

ben7799 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left turn Option 1 - "Cross Stop and Pivot" is likely illegal. Also you are riding right in front of cars that might be trying to turn right. And you're riding in an unexpected direction so you're surprising the cars. That's dangerous. It also means you likely need to wait for the light to change to take your left. If you don't, that's another dangerous moving violation. If you do, it takes a lot longer. Left Turn Op…

Option one is posted on the signage in my local lanes. I'm not sure that it would be illegal anywhere (or enforced if it is). And sure you might be in front of cars trying to turn right, but the right on red turn being blocked happens all the time via cars just going straight or left. Usually right on red is prohibited for streets that cross the bike lane road as well. I don't think it would be surprising given you a…

There isn't much correlation between what is posted on signs and what is safe and what is legal.

We see all kinds of insanity in what gets painted on the road.

The option to take the lane is always there and it always works.

If you always follow what is posted some of the time you will be doing something incredibly dangerous.

There's an intersection I go through very regularly on both car & bike (10-20x per week) on my way to work. If you are following the bike lane it actually makes you ride up to teh right onto a highway overpass ramp and then cross the highway overpass ramp and come back down it (wrong way) to get back to the path. If you're riding in the lane you just go straight through the intersection like a car. Which one of these do you think surprises the cars more and sets up more conflict?

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#116

Post by timwaagh » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 9:06 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #40

As a long time long distance cyclist an awfully lot of these lanes, both protected and painted/"sharrow" are really frightening. There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. There are still major problems with their designs though, they are working from the assumption cyclists won't learn to follow the rules of the road. Tell me…

Usually the barrier opens up when you can make turns. So when cycling you look. if the road is clear you can make the turn easy otherwise you have to stand there for a while.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#117

Post by Xylakant » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

atg_gcg_aca_aca wrote: post #114

Xylakant wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes women. They’re an underrepresented demographic among cyclists where bike infrastructure is lacking. Here’s stats for the UK for example https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics here’s an article discussing the topic https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/mar/0... Here’s data for SF https://w4c.org/case-study/women-and-biking-case-study-use-s...

> (Bike lanes) are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. Agreed women are underrepresented, but I don't think your statement is helping change the perception that women aren't real cyclists. Bike lanes are designed for people with less active riding style. Elderly people, kids, women, and men.

> I don't think your statement is helping change the perception that women aren't real cyclists

If that’s what you read in my statement I apologize. It’s not what I intended to say. Let me try and rephrase that somewhat more coherent:

The current level of infrastructure fails certain demographics more than others, chiefly among them young, elderly and women. It’s not a fault of those demographics, it’s a failure to build inclusive infrastructure. They’re all reals cyclists.

Women especially also have to suffer from substantial amounts of (verbal) abuse in the streets, especially when cycling and when cycling in what’s regarded as a dominant cycling style (in the middle of the road, preventing close passes etc.)

The push for roads as shared space is very (sporty) male dominated and even though I’m part of that group, I’d prefer if we’d give up that push and strive for infrastructure that serves more people better. (Like the Dutch do)

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#118

Post by stevesimmons » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #109

dheera wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the US and consider helmets an absolute necessity here as I'm riding alongside cars, trucks, and various other things that could kill me instantly, and riding in streets that don't have bike lanes to begin with. The reason most other countries are safer is because of awareness of bikes and proper design of bike lanes. Google image search "bike lane china" or "bike lane netherlands" to see how safe bike lane…

Yes, I agree with that. But it is a problem we created ourselves because of our love for car culture, not that helmets should be mandatory in other more sane countries. There aren't a lot of brain injuries in the Netherlands from bike accidents, so there is no demand for them. China really isn't on the list of sane places, but traffic is slow enough that helmets might not matter much anyways. My point about china was…

I nearly got a brain injury in the Netherlands!

I was riding too fast, carrying a TV, in heavy rain (all perfect normal for Amsterdam!). For some reason, I took my other hand off the handlebars, the front wheel spun round and I landed face-first on the road. :( 100% my fault; no other vehicles involved.

(btw, I wear a helmet 100% of the time in the UK, and in NL when on my road bike with clipless pedals)

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#119

Post by greglindahl » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

btrettel wrote: post #95

ben7799 wrote: post #40

As a long time long distance cyclist an awfully lot of these lanes, both protected and painted/"sharrow" are really frightening. There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. There are still major problems with their designs though, they are working from the assumption cyclists won't learn to follow the rules of the road. Tell me…

> There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. I agree with this, at least for activists as I don't have much experience with researchers. Many people view bike lanes as some sort of panacea, and they sometimes end up making the situation worse than it would be otherwise for the exact reasons you mention. Just to give an example,…

What's "protected" about a bike lane that crosses freeway onramps? I think you're talking about something completely different from what some other people in this discussion are calling "protected" lanes.

Around here, the "protected" way to cross a freeway is a bicycle/pedestrian bridge. These usually have entrances and exits on residential streets.

Re: Roads with protected bike lanes make both cycling and driving safer: study

#120

Post by jerry1979 » Mon, Jun 03, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #60

ben7799 wrote: post #40

As a long time long distance cyclist an awfully lot of these lanes, both protected and painted/"sharrow" are really frightening. There is an anti-car/pro-bike lane group of researchers who want to push this style of road design super hard right now at all costs. There are still major problems with their designs though, they are working from the assumption cyclists won't learn to follow the rules of the road. Tell me…

Here in SF many protected bike lanes cross over at intersections so they are to the left of the right-turn lane. Of course then you have the nerve-wrecking problem of what happens in the crossover zone. You are approaching cars in their biggest blindspot (rear right) and they are actively driving over your lane. I don’t think there’s a safe solution to this problem at all other than maybe saying bicycles are full par…

I think the Dutch have come up with a solution to the rear-right problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA