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The Central Park Five

nytimes.com

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Re: The Central Park Five

#61

[flagged]

To be fair, it’s not just Reyes’s “word “. If you read the motion to vacate, Reyes gives a full account of the rape beginning to end that is consistent with the evidence and included some details only the attacker would know. There is also evidence that he was later in the park by himself and not with this group of teen agers.

Reyes's testimony was after he spent a year in prison with one of the men originally convicted.

Further, his testimony was not consistent with the physical evidence:

> Reyes, 31, doesn’t mention using a knife, and a law-enforcement source said that when he was interviewed by prosecutors, he never mentioned using a knife or a razor. The medical source said this makes it doubtful Reyes acted alone because the scalp wounds that made her lose 75 to 85 percent of her blood volume were caused by a sharp object.

https://nypost.com/2002/11/02/new-jogger-case-doubt-rapist-c...

Re: The Central Park Five

#62
post #54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None were children. All were older teenagers. The central requirement of criminal culpability is being able to intellectually distinguish rights from wrong. There was no indication that they were too young to properly understand that difference.

Hey, I'm not a lawyer but apparently you are. I'll post these questions and promise to honestly read what you respond with. I'm not trolling. Correct my thinking: They were 14, 15, 16 at the time. Older teenagers you said. Do you agree with the fact (is it?) that one of them was actually younger than 16 and questioned without his parents present? Does that matter at all to you as a lawyer? If you feel they are not ch…

> Hey, I'm not a lawyer but apparently you are. I'll post these questions and promise to honestly read what you respond with. I'm not trolling. Correct my thinking: They were 14, 15, 16 at the time. Older teenagers you said. Do you agree with the fact (is it?) that one of them was actually younger than 16 and questioned without his parents present?

Yes. But he (Salaam) claimed to be sixteen and produced a transit document to that effect.

> Does that matter at all to you as a lawyer?

It matters, but that doesn’t mean it automatically invalidates the conviction or the evidence. When an accused lies about their age and the police them without a parent, that’s a violation of the law. (At least the law here in New York.) But automatically vacating the conviction based on that would not be fair to the state: the police proceeded in good faith, based on the accused’s lie. So the judge tries to figure out whether that error was really prejudicial enough to warrant excluding the evidence.

> If you feel they are not children, do you feel our system should change the definition of consensual sexual activity for minors, for example.

In Maryland, the age of consent is 14 for people who are close in age. That recognizes that teenagers are able to consent to certain adult behavior. Now, it’s 16 if the partner is much older, because there could be coercion. Here, if there was a much older ringleader I’d support a more lenient treatment for the teenagers.

> I think there are many indications that brain development is not complete by 18 or 21 and there is good reason to categorize them as children.

The question isn’t whether brain development is complete. The question is whether it is sufficiently far along that they can understand the consequences of their actions and distinguish right from wrong.

There is evidence that teenagers are, for example, more impulsive than adults. But if you look at the data, adult criminals also tend to have problems with impulse control. That’s not an excuse.

> Again, not a lawyer: isn't the typical time served for rape 5.6 years? Battery between 1-25 years. Was it normal and just for them to be behind bars for 6 to 13 years, when the city settled and released them?

If they were guilty of the other assaults of which they were convicted, I don’t see that sentence as unreadable, especially given the concerted action.

> And, am I wrong to question these convictions when no DNA evidence connected them to the rape, but Reyes was definitely linked later? Is the true story there obscured and am I missing it?

I think they were probably not guilty of the rape, based on the DNA evidence. So the vacated of the conviction was correct. But note that DNA testing was pretty new and not routine during the original trial. Also note that the evidence for their other convictions that occurred at the same time are stronger. E.g., o e defendant was carrying a pipe that was used to beat someone else at the park.

> My sense after reading about this case for years is that their sentences and the handling of this case were improper if you care about criminal justice in the US. And that it changed our justice system for the worse. That's my thesis here, not that there is a grey area about this case specifically.

It was definitely improper. But the facts are more complicated than the cartoon villain version promoted in the press: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-myth-of-the-central-park-f...

Re: The Central Park Five

#63
post #55
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None were children. All were older teenagers. The central requirement of criminal culpability is being able to intellectually distinguish rights from wrong. There was no indication that they were too young to properly understand that difference.

Again, assuming they actually did anything. Which at this point is a pretty big assumption. One requiring us to believe a one-sided narrative. So either we believe the one sided narrative of the NY Times camp, or we believe the one sided narrative of the Trump-like camp. The only things we really know as fact, is that the DNA at the scene belonged to the perp. Which perp turned out to be none of the people we actuall…

There was physical evidence linking them to the other crimes for which they were convicted.

Re: The Central Park Five

#64
post #63
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, assuming they actually did anything. Which at this point is a pretty big assumption. One requiring us to believe a one-sided narrative. So either we believe the one sided narrative of the NY Times camp, or we believe the one sided narrative of the Trump-like camp. The only things we really know as fact, is that the DNA at the scene belonged to the perp. Which perp turned out to be none of the people we actuall…

There was physical evidence linking them to the other crimes for which they were convicted.

Again, if you trust the entities producing the evidence, there was.

List the evidence, and an intellectually honest guy would have to concede that it's all based on trust.

So it really does come down to, who do you trust?

I think the only thing we can say for certain is none of these guys committed the crime they were convicted of. And even that is only because we actually have the DNA, not because we trust the actual perp who confessed to the crime.

Re: The Central Park Five

#65
post #2

I'm puzzled: did they actually put five people in jail, even though there was actually one perpetrator? Convicting the wrong person is one (terrifying) mistake, but making a five-fold mistake in the number of criminals is… incredible.

The accusation was that all five participated in the assault. This wasn’t an isolated rape in a park. It happened on the same night as mass assaults in the park that resulted in 30 arrests. There was physical evidence that the five had participated in some of the other attacks: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-myth-of-the-central-park-f...

> Was what happened to the Central Park Five completely wrong, or simply incomplete? I read Sarah Burns’ book, The Central Park Five, expecting a plaintiff’s brief, and it is that—she was an intern for lawyers pursuing civil claims on their behalf as a college student, in the summer of 2003. She believes passionately that the Five hadn’t raped the jogger; she is more circumspect in her treatment of their other felonies: “At some point, the metal bar from Korey’s house that Yusef had carried in the park had been used to beat Laughlin.” She is enthusiastic in her support of Ryan’s assessment, but doesn’t include this quote on their conduct that night: “The other crimes committed on April 19 were grave and inexcusable—unprovoked attacks on strangers, apparently undertaken for the fun of it, which left some terrorized, two knocked into unconsciousness, and one seriously injured.”

This is what makes criminal justice reform so hard. If it was just a matter of not taking completely unconnected people and beating confessions out of them, reform would be easy. What’s hard is giving due process and the benefit of the doubt to bad people, or people who committed some crimes but not others.

This is a recurring pattern in exoneration stories (and criminal defense generally). Very often the accused are bad people—the question is whether they did the specific thing they’re accused of doing.

Re: The Central Park Five

#66
post #64
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was physical evidence linking them to the other crimes for which they were convicted.

Again, if you trust the entities producing the evidence, there was. List the evidence, and an intellectually honest guy would have to concede that it's all based on trust. So it really does come down to, who do you trust? I think the only thing we can say for certain is none of these guys committed the crime they were convicted of. And even that is only because we actually have the DNA, not because we trust the actua…

They were convicted of more than just that crime, first of all. Second, I don’t think there is any indication the police fabricated evidence here. I think confessions are weaker evidence than we assume, and should be treated with more suspicion. I think the police and prosecution pursued a case while ignoring the inconsistencies in the confessions. But there is no indication that anyone manufactured evidence or tried to frame these young men.

And that’s my point in the sibling comment. If you think criminal justice reform can be achieved by hiring people who won’t fabricate evidence against totally innocent people, I’m sorry you’re going to be disappointed by how much deeper the challenges run.

Re: The Central Park Five

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it’s not just Reyes’s “word “. If you read the motion to vacate, Reyes gives a full account of the rape beginning to end that is consistent with the evidence and included some details only the attacker would know. There is also evidence that he was later in the park by himself and not with this group of teen agers.

Reyes's testimony was after he spent a year in prison with one of the men originally convicted. Further, his testimony was not consistent with the physical evidence: > Reyes, 31, doesn’t mention using a knife, and a law-enforcement source said that when he was interviewed by prosecutors, he never mentioned using a knife or a razor. The medical source said this makes it doubtful Reyes acted alone because the scalp wou…

Read the analysis of Reyes testimony on http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/wise.pdf

Re: The Central Park Five

#68
post #62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I'm not a lawyer but apparently you are. I'll post these questions and promise to honestly read what you respond with. I'm not trolling. Correct my thinking: They were 14, 15, 16 at the time. Older teenagers you said. Do you agree with the fact (is it?) that one of them was actually younger than 16 and questioned without his parents present? Does that matter at all to you as a lawyer? If you feel they are not ch…

> Hey, I'm not a lawyer but apparently you are. I'll post these questions and promise to honestly read what you respond with. I'm not trolling. Correct my thinking: They were 14, 15, 16 at the time. Older teenagers you said. Do you agree with the fact (is it?) that one of them was actually younger than 16 and questioned without his parents present? Yes. But he (Salaam) claimed to be sixteen and produced a transit doc…

Those are all fair comments. Thanks for adding them. I'll read the article you posted. I'm still unhappy that as a society we put 14 year olds in jail, but your comments clarify things about the case for me.

I will add that the fact that the 15 yr old suspect lied reflects even more poorly on the police. It's really strange that they wouldn't have told him "if you are under 16 we have to have your parents here" and then he would have lied. That looks very strange to me and makes me speculate there was more there in the confessions.

Re: The Central Park Five

#69
post #51
post #11

I really resented my parents growing up because they would never let me play outside. I was raised in Central Brooklyn in the 90s and stories like The Central Park Five and Abner Louima were cautionary tales in our neighborhood. We were too broke for summer programs so I spent a lot of my summers watching daytime TV, playing video games and browsing the internet. Brooklyn has changed a lot since the Regan / Bush days…

Surely your parents also wanted to stop you falling in with "the wrong crowd"? I'd wager a lot of people in jail are good people who fell in with the wrong crowd.

But the thing is a Black kid who gets in minor mischief is a criminal in the waiting. A white kid doing the same thing is “kids will be kids” and “that could be my child”.

Re: The Central Park Five

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shit like this significantly contributes to the legitimacy of calling the NYT "fake news". When you tell a story from one side, and one side only... (I don't mean that it's a good thing to call news orgs "fake news". I mean that if someone is already calling you "fake news", you should really take care to have impeccable reporting to avoid giving those accusations weight)

The nytimes is very much aware of this report and there is a reason it doesn’t take it seriously https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/28/nyregion/new-slant-on-jog...

That is a very interesting read. Totally different than people here are painting the situation.
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