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The Human Antivenom Project

outsideonline.com

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Re: The Human Antivenom Project

#11

Post by bayesian_horse »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #8
bayesian_horse wrote: post #2

For science! But seriously. I don't know if I want to nominate the guy for a medal or put him in jail. The incident with milking a cobra while drunk is criminally reckless, not just to his own health, but also to whoever runs into the now probably escaping snake next. He might have had proper precautions in place, like snake-proof rooms (which is harder than it sounds), but somehow I doubt it....

Keeping hot snakes in your home is definitely not a good idea. You will get bitten eventually, and you'd better keep your own supply of antivenin since there's not much cobra antivenin in the US. On the plus side, an escaped cobra probably won't live long in the wilds of Wisconsin. No other cobras to mate with, different food supply, and it's too cold.

Keeping antivenom on hand isn't that common for keepers. Antivenom production is limited, so is its shelf life, it makes more sense to keep it at centralized locations. In any case, doctors prefer not to give antivenom, because it can be worse than the bite itself.

Even tropical snakes can stay alive in a home, or a settlement. I wouldn't expect them to breed, except of course in Florida where apparently all kinds of reptiles can become pests.

Re: The Human Antivenom Project

#12

Post by dreamcompiler »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #11
dreamcompiler wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping hot snakes in your home is definitely not a good idea. You will get bitten eventually, and you'd better keep your own supply of antivenin since there's not much cobra antivenin in the US. On the plus side, an escaped cobra probably won't live long in the wilds of Wisconsin. No other cobras to mate with, different food supply, and it's too cold.

Keeping antivenom on hand isn't that common for keepers. Antivenom production is limited, so is its shelf life, it makes more sense to keep it at centralized locations. In any case, doctors prefer not to give antivenom, because it can be worse than the bite itself. Even tropical snakes can stay alive in a home, or a settlement. I wouldn't expect them to breed, except of course in Florida where apparently all kinds of…

I would expect it to be uncommon for keepers of pit vipers and corals in the US to stock antivenom, but I'd expect it to be common for keepers of non-native snakes because US hospitals don't stock non-native antivenoms. You'd typically have to obtain it from a zoo that keeps exotic snakes.

Antivenom is never "worse than the bite itself." It can occasionally cause an anaphylactic reaction which is easily manageable in a hospital setting by administration of epinephrine. The reasons doctors hold back on antivenom is that a significant fraction of people come in to the ER thinking they've been bitten by a venomous snake when they haven't, or they've received a dry bite from a venomous snake. Antivenom is never administered until venom symptoms are evident because it's quite expensive and there's no reason to risk a (manageable) anaphylactic reaction if it's not necessary.

Withholding snake* antivenom once symptoms are evident would often be a death sentence, and always medical malpractice.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/antivenom

*Edit: Added the word "snake" because black widow antivenom exists but BW bites are not usually life-threatening in adults. Most people can pull through without it. This is much more risky with venomous snakes.

Re: The Human Antivenom Project

#13

Post by emilfihlman »

It's sad that we let "etchics" get in the way of research, especially in cases like these. It's not ethics anymore, it's just fear of someone ruining your career by touting "ethics" violations, not actual ethics issues.

Re: The Human Antivenom Project

#14

Post by js2 »

If you’re of a certain age and grew up in Miami, you’re familiar with the now defunct Miami Serpentarium and its director, Bill Haast. Haast lived to 100, having been bitten over 172 times. He similarly donated his blood for medical research and also tried to build immunity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Haast

Pretty amazing story. I hope Tim Friede lives as long!

Re: The Human Antivenom Project

#16

Post by reallydude »

psudmant wrote: post #15

"Antivenom" is not a word. This article is mistakenly using this word to refer to antivenin.

It's a word that people use. Despite assertions that there are definitive word lists for languages, all words are made up over time.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antivenom

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/antivenom

You are free to pursue this futile fight.

Re: The Human Antivenom Project

#18

Post by robbiep »

bjornsing wrote: post #17

Cool story. AFAIK antibodies aren’t cells though, and you can’t “DNA sequence” them.

They get a bunch of the science wrong, but some of it right in that typical popsci way.

For instance, it is possible to isolate the DNA sequence that codes for the functional and variable domains of the antibody. But, it’s not possible to just take that and ‘grow it in bacteria’ as they say.

The construction of an antibody is very complex, with lots of cross-coupling and special confirmations that need to be induced by helper proteins in order to reach the final shape.

A bacterial cell doesn’t have the requisite ‘machinery’ to use a factory analogy, to do this.

When we make humanised antibodies for immunotherapy for cancer treatments we fuze a B/Plasma cell with a cancer cell to make it immortal, and then hope that the cell will churn out copies of itself and the antibody forever. That’s one of the reasons pharma companies can charge $50,000 per dose... its time consuming, it’s fragile... and also, once they’ve done it, no-one else can come along and build the same thing (as you might be able to do by knocking off some chemical steps to make a drug)

Re: The Human Antivenom Project

#19

Post by bayesian_horse »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #12
bayesian_horse wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping antivenom on hand isn't that common for keepers. Antivenom production is limited, so is its shelf life, it makes more sense to keep it at centralized locations. In any case, doctors prefer not to give antivenom, because it can be worse than the bite itself. Even tropical snakes can stay alive in a home, or a settlement. I wouldn't expect them to breed, except of course in Florida where apparently all kinds of…

I would expect it to be uncommon for keepers of pit vipers and corals in the US to stock antivenom, but I'd expect it to be common for keepers of non-native snakes because US hospitals don't stock non-native antivenoms. You'd typically have to obtain it from a zoo that keeps exotic snakes. Antivenom is never "worse than the bite itself." It can occasionally cause an anaphylactic reaction which is easily manageable in…

A zoo would be a centralized source. Depending on the country, there are central hotlines to help doctors know what they need and where they can get it.

An anaphylactic reaction on top of a snake bite can be worse than just a snake bite, but of course it depends on the circumstances and species. Also the immune reactions from the antivenom may clot the kidneys, which are probably already a concern if the patient is in shock. And yes, all of this is manageable. Immunology can be really weird and complicated...

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