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How Stoicism can help us

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Re: How Stoicism can help us

#31

Post by asark »

im3w1l wrote: post #21
wavefunction wrote: post #9

I enjoy studying and considering stoicism but I have to think statements like >one of the biggest groups of people interested in it seems to be millennials who work in the tech industry and considering a simplified description of stoicism >the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint. To be an indictment of our industry. We're not coal-miners. We're not picking out in the fi…

A rich person will by definition not be struggling financially but there are a lots of other problems a person can have. Maybe their wife divorced them, maybe their father just passed away, maybe their kid has a severe learning disability, maybe they are involved in a protracted court battle over the rights to a book they wrote. Point is that there are so many problems people can have, and you wont notice unless you…

Seneca called out fear of losing one's wealth as a particular affliction of the rich, and prescribed a day, every so often, of living as a beggar to remind oneself that life goes on even in those circumstances.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#32

Post by oh_sigh »

pewpewpew777 wrote: post #12

Marcus Aurelius is responsible for raising and empowering his son Commodus - the emperor depicted in the movie Gladiator. It's useful to keep this in mind when reading his meditations. Yes, the message can be nice and joyful to read. Yet the man who wrote them created a tyrant and contributed to untold suffering.

What was parenthood like in Roman times? Were parents involved in the day to day lives of their children, or was that task generally distributed to teacher-slaves and other staff?

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#33

Post by asark »

spamizbad wrote: post #11
wavefunction wrote: post #9

I enjoy studying and considering stoicism but I have to think statements like >one of the biggest groups of people interested in it seems to be millennials who work in the tech industry and considering a simplified description of stoicism >the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint. To be an indictment of our industry. We're not coal-miners. We're not picking out in the fi…

It's just this generations spin on new-age spiritualism. Boomers were there decades ago. The difference: we're now mining Zeno instead of Jung. Not necessarily a bad thing in some ways. There's lots of anxiety and neuroticism in our generation and we need tools besides benzodiazepines to address them.

I came to the Stoics before it was HN-cool via Salinger (b. 1919) so it's been in US (sort of) pop culture longer than that. Ditto Buddhism. He published in prime (earlyish) Boomer years.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#34

Post by asark »

oh_sigh wrote: post #32
pewpewpew777 wrote: post #12

Marcus Aurelius is responsible for raising and empowering his son Commodus - the emperor depicted in the movie Gladiator. It's useful to keep this in mind when reading his meditations. Yes, the message can be nice and joyful to read. Yet the man who wrote them created a tyrant and contributed to untold suffering.

What was parenthood like in Roman times? Were parents involved in the day to day lives of their children, or was that task generally distributed to teacher-slaves and other staff?

Probably the latter, especially for an emperor. People who Had Money and who Got Shit Done before modern times seem not to have spent a ton of time on their kids compared to (relative) poors, then and now, even if they did like them. See also The Great Gatsby for some people who Have Money but do not bother to Get Shit Done doing the same.

Probably that's still kinda true for most people who have kids but are famous for accomplishing just about anything. And anyway even poors pay for childcare now, what with two-income households, and between that and school end up spending maybe 1/4 of their kids' waking hours even kinda near them, at best, and much of that occupied with meals and morning/night routines (so, a good bit of it the stuff people who can afford it tend to outsource, though also they usually outsource a good deal of cleaning so the time-spent-together may be a wash), so maybe a little instruction by example but little time for anything like serious coursework or major instruction from parents.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#35

Post by freehunter »

wavefunction wrote: post #9

I enjoy studying and considering stoicism but I have to think statements like >one of the biggest groups of people interested in it seems to be millennials who work in the tech industry and considering a simplified description of stoicism >the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint. To be an indictment of our industry. We're not coal-miners. We're not picking out in the fi…

The belief the physical pain is the only kind of pain worth caring about is very misguided and causes a lot of harm in the world. It's think kind of belief that causes mental health issues to become stigmatized so people avoid seeking treatment or discussing it. This leads to breakdowns or suicide.

Just because muscles are not aching and bones are not broken and skin is intact does not mean a person is not suffering or in anguish emotionally or mentally. And especially in higher education and high-pressure tech jobs, the constant drive to succeed can cause significant mental health strains.

I don't know if you were intending to belittle mental health as less important than physical health, but I'd like to point out that there are hardships in this world that don't involve callouses or sunburns.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#36

Post by jasonhansel »

afpx wrote: post #29
jasonhansel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity, especially in the first two centuries AD, was very heavily influenced by Stoic philosophy. (The Stoic influence declined somewhat after Augustine defeated the Pelagian heresy.) (For reference: Stoicism predated Christianity by around 300 years, and was quite entrenched by the time the Gospels were written.)

And, both Christianity and Stoicism were influenced by Buddhism. (Buddhism was practiced in both the Greek and Roman worlds, and scholars note many similarities between the two.)

This is dubious, but definitely not ridiculous. Buddhism was certainly known in parts of the Greco-Roman world, but there are significant differences between Buddhism and Stoicism, and there's no evidence of any direct intellectual connection.

(Edit: one difference between the two is the Buddhist doctrine of "nonself", which contrasts with the Stoic view of the self as a part of universal Reason and a member of the kosmopolis.)

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#37

Post by afpx »

jasonhansel wrote: post #36
afpx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, both Christianity and Stoicism were influenced by Buddhism. (Buddhism was practiced in both the Greek and Roman worlds, and scholars note many similarities between the two.)

This is dubious, but definitely not ridiculous. Buddhism was certainly known in parts of the Greco-Roman world, but there are significant differences between Buddhism and Stoicism, and there's no evidence of any direct intellectual connection. (Edit: one difference between the two is the Buddhist doctrine of "nonself", which contrasts with the Stoic view of the self as a part of universal Reason and a member of the k…

I am no expert; I only read a lot. But, my understanding is that early Christianity was a reaction away from Judaism. And, that the Old Testament was only added as part of the canon later. In contrast to Judaism, Christianity was must more similar to Buddhism with it’s hippy love message. But, yes, I’m sure that’s very controversial.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#38

Post by lordleft »

pewpewpew777 wrote: post #12

Marcus Aurelius is responsible for raising and empowering his son Commodus - the emperor depicted in the movie Gladiator. It's useful to keep this in mind when reading his meditations. Yes, the message can be nice and joyful to read. Yet the man who wrote them created a tyrant and contributed to untold suffering.

I really don't know if the casual link is as firm as you insist. To what extent are parents are culpable for the crimes of their of-age children? And is there any indication that the philosophy expounded in the Meditations would lead to a maladjusted child? It feels like you're dismissing all of Aurelius' thought on the basis of something that may or may not be his fault, instead of contending with his thought directly.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#39

Post by lordleft »

One of my favorite passages from the Meditations is Marcus' observation that Stoicism has value regardless of one's theology and metaphysics:

Either there is a fatal necessity and invincible order, or a kind Providence, or a confusion without a purpose and without a director. If then there is an invincible necessity, why do you resist? But if there is a Providence that allows itself to be propitiated, make yourself worthy of the help of the divinity. But if there is a confusion without a governor, be content that in such a tempest you have yourself a certain ruling intelligence. (XII.14)

https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/gods-or-atoms...

I have found Stoicism an ecumenical movement in part because of the above.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#40

Post by h0l0cube »

jasonhansel wrote: post #36
afpx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, both Christianity and Stoicism were influenced by Buddhism. (Buddhism was practiced in both the Greek and Roman worlds, and scholars note many similarities between the two.)

This is dubious, but definitely not ridiculous. Buddhism was certainly known in parts of the Greco-Roman world, but there are significant differences between Buddhism and Stoicism, and there's no evidence of any direct intellectual connection. (Edit: one difference between the two is the Buddhist doctrine of "nonself", which contrasts with the Stoic view of the self as a part of universal Reason and a member of the k…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
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