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How Stoicism can help us

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Re: How Stoicism can help us

#21

Post by im3w1l »

wavefunction wrote: post #9

I enjoy studying and considering stoicism but I have to think statements like >one of the biggest groups of people interested in it seems to be millennials who work in the tech industry and considering a simplified description of stoicism >the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint. To be an indictment of our industry. We're not coal-miners. We're not picking out in the fi…

A rich person will by definition not be struggling financially but there are a lots of other problems a person can have. Maybe their wife divorced them, maybe their father just passed away, maybe their kid has a severe learning disability, maybe they are involved in a protracted court battle over the rights to a book they wrote.

Point is that there are so many problems people can have, and you wont notice unless you know the person well.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#22

Post by afpx »

garrigou_lag wrote: post #20

Stoicism was an intriguing topic for me in college, but I've since been more drawn towards the works of St.Thomas Aquinas. It's interesting how St. Paul encountered Stoics and Epicureans in Athens (Chapter 17:18+ of Acts). From there, you have Dionysius who followed him and was an author of some influential writings that shaped Christian thought (including Aquinas). It's also interesting exploring Heraclitus' underst…

I personally find the Meditations (of which I’m not a fan) to seem almost like a Christian gospel with regard to its tone and teachings. It makes me think that either Aurelius was influenced by Christianity, or Christianity represented a belief system that was common in Rome at the time. From my readings of the origins of Christianity, I understand that Jesus was just one of many messianic type leaders with similar teachings that existed in the Roman Empire at that time. So, makes me believe it’s more toward the latter.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#23

Post by pewpewpew777 »

darkpuma wrote: post #18
pewpewpew777 wrote: post #12

Marcus Aurelius is responsible for raising and empowering his son Commodus - the emperor depicted in the movie Gladiator. It's useful to keep this in mind when reading his meditations. Yes, the message can be nice and joyful to read. Yet the man who wrote them created a tyrant and contributed to untold suffering.

Consider the existence of good people with bad parents. Should those bad parents be credited with the success of their children? It seems perverse to assume parents deserve full 'credit' in either scenario. There are many things other than parents that may influence that child's direction for better or worse.

Even partial credit seems enough to question the wisdom of Marcus Aurelius's philosophy.

He raised Commodus, and co-ruled with him for a time. - He was was either unaware of his son's (lack) of fitness or - He was aware but unwilling to take corrective action or - He was aware but unable to take corrective action

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#24

Post by jasonhansel »

afpx wrote: post #22
garrigou_lag wrote: post #20

Stoicism was an intriguing topic for me in college, but I've since been more drawn towards the works of St.Thomas Aquinas. It's interesting how St. Paul encountered Stoics and Epicureans in Athens (Chapter 17:18+ of Acts). From there, you have Dionysius who followed him and was an author of some influential writings that shaped Christian thought (including Aquinas). It's also interesting exploring Heraclitus' underst…

I personally find the Meditations (of which I’m not a fan) to seem almost like a Christian gospel with regard to its tone and teachings. It makes me think that either Aurelius was influenced by Christianity, or Christianity represented a belief system that was common in Rome at the time. From my readings of the origins of Christianity, I understand that Jesus was just one of many messianic type leaders with similar t…

Christianity, especially in the first two centuries AD, was very heavily influenced by Stoic philosophy. (The Stoic influence declined somewhat after Augustine defeated the Pelagian heresy.)

(For reference: Stoicism predated Christianity by around 300 years, and was quite entrenched by the time the Gospels were written.)

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#25

Post by asark »

jasonhansel wrote: post #24
afpx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally find the Meditations (of which I’m not a fan) to seem almost like a Christian gospel with regard to its tone and teachings. It makes me think that either Aurelius was influenced by Christianity, or Christianity represented a belief system that was common in Rome at the time. From my readings of the origins of Christianity, I understand that Jesus was just one of many messianic type leaders with similar t…

Christianity, especially in the first two centuries AD, was very heavily influenced by Stoic philosophy. (The Stoic influence declined somewhat after Augustine defeated the Pelagian heresy.) (For reference: Stoicism predated Christianity by around 300 years, and was quite entrenched by the time the Gospels were written.)

And everything was influenced by and influencing platonism at that time, so some of the connection may be via that.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#26

Post by jasonhansel »

> In your book, you also write about the importance of following your own values — and that Stoicism is a personal choice.

> therapists today are increasingly encouraging clients to identify their true inner values and do things that serve those more fully. The big problem here is that most people don’t know what those values are.

It's important to remember that the Stoics did not encourage us to follow our own individual, personal values, or to look for them as some sort of "inner truth." Rather, they thought that value was objective, and that we should give up our existing values in favor of the correct ones (the ones in accordance with nature).

> It’s something they identify with at a deeper kind of more spiritual level, almost like a substitute for religion.

Well, it effectively was a religion, based on a fairly developed system of theology.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#27

Post by mark_l_watson »

ohaideredevs wrote: post #17
bitexploder wrote: post #8

Aurelius is the most approachable, but I find Epictetus more rewarding. Check out A. A. Long on Epictetus to get more deeply into what Epictetus was all about. Stoicism is like a missing manual for how to live a fulfilled life regardless of your station.

I got nothing out of reading meditations after reading Aurelius' quotes. I feel like the whole back can be summarized "Focus on what you can control, don't stress over what you truly can't." Same with ALL of Buddhism.

I agree that the teachings from Stoicism and Buddhism seem simple but I have some difficulty consistently putting them into practice in my daily life. I read about one book a week and out the approximately 50 books a year I read, at least 3 or 4 of those are on Stoicism or Buddhism. (The remainder of my reading allowance is about equal parts of fiction and technology.)

While I am a devoted student of technology and I love learning new programming languages and application domains, I find that I enjoy those "aha" moments from Stoicism and especially from Buddhism. I consider myself very fortunate to have enough time to pursue both tech and philosophy.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#28

Post by jasonhansel »

asark wrote: post #25
jasonhansel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity, especially in the first two centuries AD, was very heavily influenced by Stoic philosophy. (The Stoic influence declined somewhat after Augustine defeated the Pelagian heresy.) (For reference: Stoicism predated Christianity by around 300 years, and was quite entrenched by the time the Gospels were written.)

And everything was influenced by and influencing platonism at that time, so some of the connection may be via that.

Indeed. Epictetus is famous for (mis)interpreting Plato to suit his own ends.

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#29

Post by afpx »

jasonhansel wrote: post #24
afpx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally find the Meditations (of which I’m not a fan) to seem almost like a Christian gospel with regard to its tone and teachings. It makes me think that either Aurelius was influenced by Christianity, or Christianity represented a belief system that was common in Rome at the time. From my readings of the origins of Christianity, I understand that Jesus was just one of many messianic type leaders with similar t…

Christianity, especially in the first two centuries AD, was very heavily influenced by Stoic philosophy. (The Stoic influence declined somewhat after Augustine defeated the Pelagian heresy.) (For reference: Stoicism predated Christianity by around 300 years, and was quite entrenched by the time the Gospels were written.)

And, both Christianity and Stoicism were influenced by Buddhism. (Buddhism was practiced in both the Greek and Roman worlds, and scholars note many similarities between the two.)

Re: How Stoicism can help us

#30

Post by reitzensteinm »

darkpuma wrote: post #18
pewpewpew777 wrote: post #12

Marcus Aurelius is responsible for raising and empowering his son Commodus - the emperor depicted in the movie Gladiator. It's useful to keep this in mind when reading his meditations. Yes, the message can be nice and joyful to read. Yet the man who wrote them created a tyrant and contributed to untold suffering.

Consider the existence of good people with bad parents. Should those bad parents be credited with the success of their children? It seems perverse to assume parents deserve full 'credit' in either scenario. There are many things other than parents that may influence that child's direction for better or worse.

Raising a bad child is one thing, but handing them the keys to the kingdom is another.

It's not enough to dismiss the philosophy, but parent comment is absolutely correct that you should keep it in mind as historical context.

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