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Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

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Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it would be nice to know we can worry less about how we impact things, but I don't see what the point is in wishful thinking.

Actually, global cooling & a wet spring means decreased crop yields around the world. This is a serious matter that we need to properly prepare for. Not be distracted by pseudoscience of "Anthropogenic Global Warming". We are seeing an increase of Earthquakes & Volcanic Eruptions, driven by space weather. We need to prepare accordingly. The next few winters will continue to get colder.

You need to lay off the fake science.

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#52
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so glad to see you bring this up. In my graduate physics training, I was taught to be extremely cautious about statistical significance, error propagation, and error bars. I remain skeptical of our conclusions about AGW, not because I have a political view on the subject, but because I'm skeptical that our temperature measurements from 120 years ago have a precision of less than 1 degree C. But I (sincerely) assu…

Hyperskepticism run wild. You, an outsider, doubt the science because you think that the people who have specialized in the field and have spent their careers collecting data are not as smart as you and have overlooked the quality of their data sets. I'll go farther and say nobody better understands the limits of their data sets than the people who work with them.

I'm curious if you extend that attitude of "outsiders should believe what we tell them" to other fields? Nutrition science or social psychology, perhaps. What about the humanities?

I'm not convinced that a well-educated observer from outside of a field must be incapable of spotting flaws in the reasoning of professionals or the evidence they use to support it.

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#53
Have been reading the late and great David MacKay's Sustainable Energy - Without the Hot Air lately (completely free on withouthotair.com)

https://www.withouthotair.com/c1/page_5.shtml

>The climate-change motivation is argued in three steps: one: human fossil- fuel burning causes carbon dioxide concentrations to rise; two: carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas; three: increasing the greenhouse effect in- creases average global temperatures (and has many other effects).

>Fossil fuel burning increases CO2 concentrations significantly. But does it matter? “Carbon is nature!”, the oilspinners remind us, “Carbon is life!” If CO2 had no harmful effects, then indeed carbon emissions would not matter.

>However, carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. Not the strongest greenhouse gas, but a significant one nonetheless. Put more of it in the atmosphere, and it does what greenhouse gases do: it absorbs infrared radiation (heat) heading out from the earth and reemits it in a random di- rection; the effect of this random redirection of the atmospheric heat traffic is to impede the flow of heat from the planet, just like a quilt. So carbon dioxide has a warming effect. This fact is based not on complex historical records of global temperatures but on the simple physical properties of CO2 molecules. Greenhouse gases are a quilt, and CO2 is one layer of the quilt.

> One last thing about the climate-change motivation: while a range of human activities cause greenhouse-gas emissions, the biggest cause by far is energy use. Some people justify not doing anything about their energy use by excuses such as “methane from burping cows causes more warming than jet travel.” Yes, agricultural by-products contributed one eighth of greenhouse-gas emissions in the year 2000. But energy-use contributed three quarters (figure 1.9). The climate change problem is principally an energy problem.

Watched Merchants of Doubt recently, point that stuck with me most is that people against global warming are motivated by libertarianism, and anti-communism. lots of the contrarian scientists worked during the cold war. Will be checking out the book version soon

I don't think you even need the climate change motivation to get behind moving off fossil fuels (supply chain security is another huge one, I find climate change deniers often also in the peak oil camp). The way David MacKay presents the numbers allows people to come up with realistic plans to move off fossil fuels on their own instead of reciting someone else's dogma

Teasing out cause and effect is difficult especially with something that we can't perform randomized experiments on. I'd like to read more about counterfactuals and causal analysis of climate change

Judea Pearl has a great little bit about this in The Book of Why

>Until recently, climate scientists have found it very difficult and awkward to answer questions like “Did global warming cause this storm [or this heat wave, or this drought]?” The conventional answer has been that individual weather events cannot be attributed to global climate change. Yet this answer seems rather evasive and may even contribute to public indifference about climate change.

> Counterfactual analysis allows climate scientists to make much more precise and definite statements than before. It requires, however, a slight addition to our everyday vocabulary. It will be helpful to distinguish three different kinds of causation: necessary causation, sufficient causation, and necessary-and-sufficient causation.

> Using these words, a climate scientist can say, “There is a 90 percent probability that man-made climate change was a necessary cause of this heat wave,” or “There is an 80 percent probability that climate change will be sufficient to produce a heat wave this strong at least once every 50 years.” The first sentence has to do with attribution: Who was responsible for the unusual heat? The second has to do with policy. It says that we had better prepare for such heat waves because they are likely to occur sooner or later. Either of these statements is more informative than shrugging our shoulders and saying nothing about the causes of individual weather events

> Climate scientists can get counterfactuals very easily from their computer models: just enter in a new number for the carbon dioxide concentration and let the program run.

and one of my favorite quotes from MacKay:

> Please don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to be pro-nuclear or anti-wind. I'm just pro-arithmetic

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(Note that I'm not saying natural cycles ARE responsible for the bulk of observed warming - just that this research doesn't seem to prove they're NOT.) Well it can't, can it? All it can do is provide evidence one way or another. Now if you think that there is a problem in the model they are using, could you point to it and explain the specific issue? I assume that it is somewhat updated since 9/11 and I also suspect…

OK, OK, I was using laymans' terms. If you want to get picky about can't-prove-a-negatives then read it as "this research doesn't seem to provide much evidence that they're NOT."

If you think that there is a problem in the model they are using, could you point to it and explain the specific issue?

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, speaking as a former glaciologist, that's not likely to be true. The parent poster is correct. Younger Dryas featured multiple advances and retreats, which is inconsistent with an impact. Multiple impact over many centuries just isn't that statistically likely, and we would see better evidence of it. Instead, the most probably cause is freshwater pulses coming out of the melting Laurentide ice sheet changing circ…

A report was published in Nature in spring of this year showing multiple lines of evidence for impact-related effects in the YDB layer in southern Chile: "In the most extensive investigation south of the equator, we report on a ~12,800-year-old sequence at Pilauco, Chile (~40°S), that exhibits peak YD boundary concentrations of platinum, gold, high-temperature iron- and chromium-rich spherules, and native iron partic…

That just means that there was an impact at around the same time. There's been numerous impacts like this that have been claimed to be the cause of Younger Dryas in the past. However, just because there was an impact doesn't mean it had anything to do with YD.

The Atlantic meridional overturning current shutdown from a freshwater pulse is much more parsimonious, and is exactly what we would expect from the physics of the Laurentide melt going into the Atlantic.

Impacts still don't explain the multiple advance and retreats during the Laurentide, but it is obvious why that would occur with the AMOC shutdown explanation:

Melting causes the AMOC to shut down, causing nothern hemisphere cooling. The cooling reduces melting, inducing the AMOC to start back up, increasing melting once again.

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, tomorrow, NASA, NOAA, and the UN IPCC held a joint press conference to announce surprising new evidence which indicated that anthropogenic effects on the climate were minimal, that we could not noticeably affect the climate, regardless of our emissions, and that the climate was essentially out of our control, what would your reaction be? Would that be good news or bad news? Why?

[deleted]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. What I mean is, if these organizations made such an announcement, and assuming that they were correct, what would you think? Would that be good news or bad news? Why?

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A report was published in Nature in spring of this year showing multiple lines of evidence for impact-related effects in the YDB layer in southern Chile: "In the most extensive investigation south of the equator, we report on a ~12,800-year-old sequence at Pilauco, Chile (~40°S), that exhibits peak YD boundary concentrations of platinum, gold, high-temperature iron- and chromium-rich spherules, and native iron partic…

That just means that there was an impact at around the same time. There's been numerous impacts like this that have been claimed to be the cause of Younger Dryas in the past. However, just because there was an impact doesn't mean it had anything to do with YD. The Atlantic meridional overturning current shutdown from a freshwater pulse is much more parsimonious, and is exactly what we would expect from the physics of…

I accept part of what you're saying, which I believe is that the Laurentide melt was probably happening anyways, with the associated effects on the AMOC. Glacial oscillation are their own cycle, clearly.

But the YD impact scenario hardly seems irrelevant to the YD. I'm curious what other impacts you're aware of that you deem irrelevant.

The best candidate I'm aware of for the YD impact would possibly/probably be related to the Hiawatha crater [1], which is 31km after likely boring through a km or so of ice. This puts it amongst the largest impacts on Earth, e.g. since back to the Chesapeake/Siberian impact around 35mya, (if not beyond after the ice impact is taken into account, e.g. to Chicxulub) [2]. It's not solidly dated yet, but according to the authors the evidence at the site is consistent with an impact during the Pleistocene, and they even say it may still be hot, despite being packed in ice!

If we're talking about the same event, with evidence across 24-53 sites on 4 continents that includes continent-wide fires, impact winter and floral and megafaunal extinction, then I'd be hard-pressed to see how this doesn't have to do with the main climate change event of that period; that's the definition of what makes the YD significant: the drastic floral changes (e.g. of Dryas octopetala) at the boundary. The impact seems a more likely candidate cause for the abrupt global changes.

Or put another way, I think the question is back to you of how changes in the AMOC during the YD somehow caused the characteristic extinctions and charcoal residue observed in southern Chile at the YDB.

The contemporaneous, global inferno and impact winter going seems too much to chalk up to coincidence. That's where I see the parsimony breakdown for a simple Laurentide melting/AMOC change being responsible for the YDB.

[1] https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/11/eaar8173

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_impact_craters_on_Eart...

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#59
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. What I mean is, if these organizations made such an announcement, and assuming that they were correct, what would you think? Would that be good news or bad news? Why?

[deleted]

> Or are you trying to reveal some sort of hidden value judgment or bias or something related to the politics of global warming?

Mainly that, although you aren't the person I posed the question to, and it may not apply to you. Assuming you're being sincere, it doesn't appear to.

Since we've come this far, if I may continue asking you:

Since you seem to sincerely believe that AGW theory is soundly supported by basic science, what do you make of the many reputable, accomplished scientists, physicists, etc. who do not believe that it is soundly supported by basic science?

What do you make of the former IPCC scientists who have whistleblown on the IPCC scientists' political bias and resigned in protest?

What do you make of Cook, et al's fraudulent "97% consensus" paper?

I appreciate your thoughtful discussion.

Re: Why natural cycles only play small role in rate of global warming

#60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> Or are you trying to reveal some sort of hidden value judgment or bias or something related to the politics of global warming? Mainly that, although you aren't the person I posed the question to, and it may not apply to you. Assuming you're being sincere, it doesn't appear to. Since we've come this far, if I may continue asking you: Since you seem to sincerely believe that AGW theory is soundly supported by basic s…

[deleted]
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