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Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

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Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#521
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't even consider prison to offer "shelter" since you're locked in there with violent people.

Words work because we agree what they mean in advance. You can't redefine "shelter" to suit your argument. Just make it with the standard definitions of words.

Would you consider that a non-standard usage of "shelter"? I had a quick look online and I'm seeing definitions like:

a position or the state of being covered and protected

a shielded or safe condition; protection

a place giving temporary protection from bad weather or danger

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#522
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're an "honest product" then why do they put caffeine in them? Caffeine doesn't change the flavor to make it "as delicious as possible".

Kola nuts, which contain caffeine, were in the original formulation. It's a stimulant - that's partly what some people are drinking Coca Cola and similar drinks for in the first place. It wasn't added later to increase sales.

Right, but nowadays there's no reason for it to be in there. You said they're marketed as a treat, and optimized to be as delicious as possible. So what's the caffeine for then? They're not marketed as energy drinks or designed to be as stimulating as possible.

I say that the caffeine is in there solely to keep people addicted to it even more.

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#523
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kola nuts, which contain caffeine, were in the original formulation. It's a stimulant - that's partly what some people are drinking Coca Cola and similar drinks for in the first place. It wasn't added later to increase sales.

Right, but nowadays there's no reason for it to be in there. You said they're marketed as a treat, and optimized to be as delicious as possible. So what's the caffeine for then? They're not marketed as energy drinks or designed to be as stimulating as possible. I say that the caffeine is in there solely to keep people addicted to it even more.

> So what's the caffeine for then?

Part of being an enjoyable experience - not literally part of being delicious but part of being a sensation people enjoy.

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#524
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find odd about this is that there does exist at least one perfectly fine micropayment system. It's running in my laundromat (the company is Heartland Micropayments), where I can use my credit/debit or laundry payment card. When I wash and dry three loads of laundry, I don't get 6 charges on my card. I get one. It seems like it wouldn't be a huge amount of work to bring this to the internet, particularly since…

Batching small payments is not the hard part of creating a payment system that can support the entire Web. Harder parts include problems like UX (e.g. balancing the need to make a system people will want to use against the danger of users unknowingly running up a huge bill), getting buy-in from websites (why should they use your service in particular?), and just convincing people to sign up for yet another godforsake…

Not to mention all the money service business non-sense which makes it nigh unapproachable unless you're a bank.

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#525
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will notice 'being locked in cages' is not in my original list.

My point is that subsistence allocations of food, water, shelter, and clothing is not enough, and such are part of the punishment of prison.

The things that make prison an undesirable place are lack of autonomy and separation from friends and family. You don’t need advertising or corporations to provide these.

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current? A German philosopher wrote in 1844: > every person speculates on creating a new need in another, so as to drive him to fresh sacrifice, to place him in a new dependence and to seduce him into a new mode of enjoyment and therefore economic ruin.

> A German philosopher Subtle, I like it.

[deleted]

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not growth capitalism. Growth capitalism requires constant growth in both supply and demand. Increasing supply requires increasing the usage of raw materials (not to mention the waste generated through their use). The reality is that we don't have an unlimited supply of any raw materials, so growth cannot be maintained indefinitely.

Increasing supply requires increasing the usage of raw materials Recycling exists; Planet Earth has been doing it with organic matter for a couple of billion years without running out.

Recycling is not a solution at human time scales, because it is lossy. Recycling is a way of delaying depletion, not eliminating it.

And you're ignoring that we're talking about growth capitalism here. Here if recycling were perfect, if growth continues indefinitely then a point will inevitably be reached where demand exceeds the amount of supply that exists, recycling or not.

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's research on nudging behaviours, and that being told you're being nudged doesn't negatively impact your decision vs not being told you're being nudged, which could be considered synonymous with advertising transparency [0] (although there are caveats at play that might make that unsound). [0] https://www.coglode.com/gem/transparency-effect

I don't doubt the effects I'd advertising. What I wonder is whether advertising affects everyone. Studies can show that it affects people on average, but it doesn't mean it affects everyone.

Advertising does affect everyone in the broad picture. Specific advertising campaigns don't affect everyone, though. Also, different people are affected by different approaches. What works for one set of people doesn't for another.

This is why there are a set of different approaches that have been shown to be effective (given names like "the bandwagon" -- which covers the group of people who can be swayed by convincing them that everyone else is into something). A comprehensive campaign will have different ads for the same thing, each using a different approach, to maximize the number of people they affect.

By the way, if you ever want a deep-dive into this stuff without actually taking college courses on it, my recommendation is to find a copy of guidelines provided to car dealerships. Those things are very comprehensive, unabashed, and to-the-point.

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

assuming he's like me (ad blockers, limited tv, etc), I have a Netflix account, and I don't even honestly know what 'Netflix ranking' is. Assumimg it is something like Netflix's recommendation service, well, this might come back to an difference in philosophy: I don't need/want to be recommended shows to watch, and I don't use recommender/suggestions. One does not have a need/desire to consume media as an abstract co…

How do you decide what to watch? How do you become aware of new shows you would be interested in? For me this is one of the benefits of Netflix's recommendation service. While I feel like the quality of the recommendations has gone down over the years, it still has value. I tend to watch 1-2 shows at a time until I have watched the entirely of them. When I finish one I want to find another to watch, but don't always…

well, presumably the same method I use to figure out how to read books I haven't read yet, listen to music when I don't have a radio: organically or through picking some out from good reviews or subject matter sharing/experts.

An actual benefit to this in my eyes is that marketing and fads tend to have short attention spans, so if you're interested in quality as opposed to 'riding the social wave', most fads won't hold their quality/appeal after a few years.

And besides, we're so overwhelmed with media, the desire to 'get more' is about the definition of an anti- problem... we actually need to find ways to consume less...

Re: Advertising as a source of dissatisfaction: cross-national evidence

#530
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ogilvy, Saatchi et al are the Goebbels' of our age. Sorry, but that is waaay over the top. It makes you sound a bit nutty. A "Truther" of sorts, that dangerously believes too profoundly in his own ideology.

Have you considered that maybe GP has a better intuition about the systems effects of advertising, that you haven't fully considered? - Advertising is a major driver of material consumption, much of which is unnecessary. - Material consumption drives economic growth. There's also intellectual property, and there's the service industry, but even those contribute indirectly to material consumption. - Economic growth an…

> The only criticism I'd make against GP's claim is that the advertising industry is just one spoke in the global wheel of impossible growth and consumption. GP's claim is not nutty, it's too narrow and limited. Ogilvy and Saatchi are only footsoldiers.

Sure - guilty as charged. I was making a pretty limited somewhat rhetorical gesture.

> The only way this game of musical chairs ends without tears is if we luck into some awesome technology that leads to post-scarcity economics.

I don't believe this to be possible, because the global ecological crisis (of which economic crashes are minor phenotypical efflorescences) doesn't have the kind of simple single causes that short-term big-bang technological innovation can fix. It's the progressive erosion of hundreds of complex evolved systems whose components are being broken at multiple levels. The kind of technology required to 'fix' this would have to have similar types of complexities at multiple scales as are found in those complex evolved systems. That may be achievable, but given the crudeness of our current technology, surely over a timescale of centuries, not the decades we have available.

The one possibility would be to slow so-called 'growth' down dramatically enough to allow evolved systems to recover, and in the meantime develop complex technologies on a slow, centuries-scale, burn. But obviously that's politically infeasible, so global ecological collapse it will be.

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