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The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

citylab.com

271–280 of 397 posts

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#271
post #211
post #6

So what’s this fascination with tunnels? In Chicago, there are overhead elevated train tracks, and they work just fine. They seem a lot cheaper to build and maintain than tunnels. You can even build them over existing avenues. Why don’t we have more of that?

Old steel elevated tracks like the L are kinda crummy. You have to deal with weather both on the tracks and the stations, they darken whatever is below them, are incredibly loud, and wear out relatively quickly. Derailments can be catastrophic because trains fall from a great height (as happened in the Loop in 1977). Using concrete solves the noise problems, but requires more space and money.

Concrete adds a lot more bulk and makes them visually oppressive. I’ve always hated how they did the elevated Metro lines (hulking concrete structures high in the air, requiring climbing up long escalators with multiple mezzanines), versus the L lines which are organically integrated into the neighborhood.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more point-to-point metro system would be great. The airline industry has been embracing this change for quite awhile. People don't like a hub & spoke system and it doesn't make sense to take everyone to city center which just adds to the crowding and congestion, as many current metro systems do. Imagine a city that is crisscrossed with multiple direct metro lines. Design for extremely frequent departures, which li…

The airline industry embraced point-to-point routing in part because it reduces their costs on inelastic infrastructure on the ground, and allows them to tailor their schedule around demand at the two endpoints rather than on maintaining a network. They pay-as-they-use for airport gates and lessened their spending on hubs. Fixed-guideway transport infrastructure (trains, busways) and dedicated structures (tunnels, br…

Sure, I'm by no means suggesting deprecating roads. They still serve an important purpose and will always be important for the 'last-mile'. Roads however have significant constraints since you can only build them in two dimensions.

The premise of Boring Company is that by building smaller tunnels, they can build them much more cheaply. Commutes could be more efficient, and city traffic reduced substantially if people could take tunnels across the city instead of drive.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#273
post #232
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't look worth it at all. It cost $22 billion and the result is a narrow 1-block park through the center of Boston. Most of those buildings next to what used to be the highway are at most 10-20 stories. A 60 story skyscraper was finished in Boston this year for $700[1]. So to a first approximation they could have had a full 2-3 blocks of parks around 15 new such skyscrapers to get the same building space aft…

It was absolutely worth it. I've visited that area back in the early-/mid-00s when the highways and construction were still there, and recently (was just there a few weeks ago, actually) after completion. It's night and day, and the new space is a huge improvement over the old. Comparing skyscraper build costs to tunnel build costs is meaningless. Noise isn't the only factor. The bigger issues are division of the cit…

Whether it's worth it isn't measured by whether it's a huge improvement, it's obvious to anyone with eyes that the current state is better. It's whether it could have been even better had the $22 billion been spent differently.

So no, comparing skyscraper cost to tunnel cost is absolutely meaningful, because if you want to increase green space one way is to spend an exorbitant amount of money digging a highway into the ground, another is to demolish 5 blocks of 10 story houses, build one 50 story skyscraper, and get 4 blocks of public park as a result.

Urban blight around elevated highways isn't some law of nature, it's just a zoning problem, and one that's a lot cheaper to solve than digging the highway into the ground.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#274
post #67

I love watching all of Musk's projects, as every single one can be connected to Mars colonization. 1. Electric cars for transport, Check. 2. Solar panels and batteries for power generation and storage, check. 3. Tunnel digging equipment for making underground bases and transport, check. 4. Satellite communications for an entire planet, check. 5. Then finally, the actual rockets to get us there. Hopefully he will cont…

While I don't discount Musk's obsession with Mars, the recurring pattern I see is government money.

- Electric cars: subsidies

- Solar panels: subsidies

- Tunnel: transport infrastructure

- Rockets: NASA/military contracts

Starlink looks more like a commercial project but it doesn't mean the government can't get interested. After all, the internet itself started as a military project.

There are missing pieces in both theories (Mars and government money), the biggest one being PayPal. And some of them don't fit perfectly. So chances are that we are just making stuff up.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moon might have been seen as similarly silly. US might much more easily have focused on nearer space with a greater ROI on the project itself. But apart from the geopolitical bragging rights, the technical constraints of a moon shot meant the development of all kinds of technologies that rippled outward through society. We see some of the same effects with the LHC. Its direct uses have limited (immediate) practic…

Sorry, what's an innovation that came out of the moon program or the LHC that has broader social benefit?

Here is a good starting point for the LHC: https://www.quora.com/Could-any-practical-benefits-of-the-La...

And here's a good starting point for the Apollo moon missions: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/80660main_ApolloFS....

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this point get made often, but I'm not sure it is an insightful way to look at the world. Tesla cars are only barely related to Mars colonization, and PayPal is not really at all, which is a product conveniently ignored in your post. Even the SpaceX internet satellite constellation looks almost nothing like what internet access on Mars will be anytime in the forseeable future. It seems like a similarly strong a…

Elon is new Steve Jobs is the new Jesus. Anyone can foist one's own unbridled ambitions, mixed in with a dash of lottery dreaming, tossed in with a bit of hubris, to come up with whatever the bright shiny future could be.

The difference might be they were also heads of million dollar companies. How many of those have you or I started?

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#277
post #2

Yes, it is. With one that caveat that if it's built 10x cheaper than comparable tunnels, it is. Moving our roads underground is a vastly superior transportation system than we have today. It can be safer, better for the air, better for light and noise pollution, unlock vast amounts of land in our urban areas for parks, etc. I grew up near Boston during the big dig and the city is a drastically different place before…

It’s not built 10x cheaper than others’ construction price.

https://youtu.be/0ezF7NmwQZs

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moon might have been seen as similarly silly. US might much more easily have focused on nearer space with a greater ROI on the project itself. But apart from the geopolitical bragging rights, the technical constraints of a moon shot meant the development of all kinds of technologies that rippled outward through society. We see some of the same effects with the LHC. Its direct uses have limited (immediate) practic…

Sorry, what's an innovation that came out of the moon program or the LHC that has broader social benefit?

Quite a few things, to name a few:

* improved firefighting protective gear

* Athletic shoes

* Sports stadiums being able to move the field of play

* seismological monitors for everything from trains to trucks

* base defibrillator tech

* cordless power tools

* skin care: "Estee Lauder uses digital image analyzers and software based on NASA lunar research to evaluate cosmetic products."

[0] https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/80660main_ApolloFS....

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#279
post #106

I don’t see this doing $50M of good for easing congestion. I would prefer it if they’d commit to a much larger budget project connecting the airport to the convention center and several major hotels and casinos than this low density single lane tunnel.

It's good to do a smaller project for a proof of concept first, then you can do a bigger project after that.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this point get made often, but I'm not sure it is an insightful way to look at the world. Tesla cars are only barely related to Mars colonization, and PayPal is not really at all, which is a product conveniently ignored in your post. Even the SpaceX internet satellite constellation looks almost nothing like what internet access on Mars will be anytime in the forseeable future. It seems like a similarly strong a…

The reason PayPal is ignored by most people is two reasons. 1. In its current form, it has less resemblance to what he wanted to do with it (its a better product because of this fact) and 2. He famously found the biggest hurdles for humanity and their solutions after selling PayPal and becoming a multi millionaire with nothing but time to spend it. Originally he wanted to put a mini greenhouse on mars as a media stun…

>The reason PayPal is ignored by most people is two reasons.

You forgot the most important one.

3) PayPal is a huge PR nightmare, a pseudo-bank that sits between legal boundaries whenever it needs to in order to maximize profit, screwing over thousands of folks -- many of them with small businesses that foolishly relied on them as a service. A successful service that everyone uses, and most people hate -- the customers are swept in by me-tooisms and forced participation.

If I were Musk, or I was a Musk evangelist , i'd stay far away from that 'accomplishment', as well.

He's not responsible for the entirety of the beast, but afaik he IS responsible for the viral aspects of their customer recruitment -- a method I feel is unethical from a monopolistic standpoint for a banking entity to participate in.

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