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The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

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Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#111
post #95
post #67

I love watching all of Musk's projects, as every single one can be connected to Mars colonization. 1. Electric cars for transport, Check. 2. Solar panels and batteries for power generation and storage, check. 3. Tunnel digging equipment for making underground bases and transport, check. 4. Satellite communications for an entire planet, check. 5. Then finally, the actual rockets to get us there. Hopefully he will cont…

The goal of Mars to me is silly. Mars is already worse off in terms of climate than Earth. Why not work to improve what we have? The only appeal I see is "uncharted territory" / wild west

There's also mitigating the Great Filter: https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#112
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mostly hype yes, what do you expect from a startup? The strongest premise is the tunnel diameter is smaller, therefore quicker and cheaper to build. There may be efficiencies to be gained through improved engineering of tunneling machines as well, given SpaceX and Tesla's innovations. Yes, there are many problems left, however every start-up faces a number of problems. They're basically just lining up to build a…

The price tag for the tunnel is pretty much what you’d expect at the low end of civil engineering costs, so there’s no room in the pricing if things start to go south. Musk’s entire premise is that there are magical inefficiencies in the commercial tunnel boring machines he’s purchased, and he assumes that spacecraft and automotive engineering expertise is sufficiently transferable to uncover those opportunities and…

Based on my ballpark guesses at the cost of the tunnel, I would be surprised if The Boring Company actually made any money on this. They're liable for all cost overruns, and they have to bear the costs of developing the custom Tesla car manufacturing and safety qualification themselves.

The most galling part to me is that I can't see how they make the mandated 4400 people/hr limit. That requires 26 second headways between vehicles (assuming that 4400 people/hr is a bidirectional capacity, not unidirectional), and I don't see them getting station dwell times low enough to permit those headways--airport people movers usually run around 30-45 second dwell times.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#113
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say that? Even accounting for the cost, I think many would still argue that it was worth it, replacing a highway system that divided the city with a walkable network of parks that effectively connects different neighborhoods like financial district north end, along with a new series of (underground) highways that provided improved traffic flow. Before and after photos: https://imgur.com/JbgPur6 If the cost…

That doesn't look worth it at all. It cost $22 billion and the result is a narrow 1-block park through the center of Boston. Most of those buildings next to what used to be the highway are at most 10-20 stories. A 60 story skyscraper was finished in Boston this year for $700[1]. So to a first approximation they could have had a full 2-3 blocks of parks around 15 new such skyscrapers to get the same building space aft…

Those existing buildings have people inside. Pulling them out to demolish the buildings and add new, taller, skyscrapers has significant costs I think you aren't factoring in. Like all those businesses inside have to relocate... which costs money.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#114
post #95
post #67

I love watching all of Musk's projects, as every single one can be connected to Mars colonization. 1. Electric cars for transport, Check. 2. Solar panels and batteries for power generation and storage, check. 3. Tunnel digging equipment for making underground bases and transport, check. 4. Satellite communications for an entire planet, check. 5. Then finally, the actual rockets to get us there. Hopefully he will cont…

The goal of Mars to me is silly. Mars is already worse off in terms of climate than Earth. Why not work to improve what we have? The only appeal I see is "uncharted territory" / wild west

1. Potential for finding evidence of life outside of the Earth, never mind scientific research into dozens of other topics.

2. Joy and sheer inspiration; why go to the moon, run a marathon, or compose a symphony? Joy and inspiration.

3. Potential to improve our own technology as we strive for the above points. Clear, clear evidence of this in parent's comment and after NASA's innovative tech.

It's irrelevant if you personally don't care, you don't have to do it. It seems there will be billions of dollars and thousands of willing individuals, you can sit back and relax while the rest of us explore the stars.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#115
post #79
post #67

I love watching all of Musk's projects, as every single one can be connected to Mars colonization. 1. Electric cars for transport, Check. 2. Solar panels and batteries for power generation and storage, check. 3. Tunnel digging equipment for making underground bases and transport, check. 4. Satellite communications for an entire planet, check. 5. Then finally, the actual rockets to get us there. Hopefully he will cont…

Has he specifically called out the connection or is this your pet conspiracy theory? It doesn’t seem too far off, to be honest.

It's a pretty natural conclusion people frequently arrive at. That said, I don't think it's valid, as I don't believe it was all explicitly planned like that. In particular:

1. Electric cars were created with Earth in mind. Musk was, and probably still is, very interested in ways to help fix the climate issue, and that reason was mentioned explicitly.

2. Connected to 1, not to Mars.

3. I'm not sure what the motivation here is; the official one was that Musk was bored ( :) ) in traffic. It meshes with Tesla's business if properly integrated. That said, the utility of tunnels for Mars settlement seems so big that I'm pretty sure he had it in mind too.

4. No colonies in a nearby future will need a Starlink-scale planetary Internet network. I'm 100% buying the official version here: Starlink exists to generate revenue for further work on the Mars transportation system/BFR (whatever its current name; Starship I think?).

I really don't think these were part of a grand plan all along. But they're all ultimately relevant for Mars.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this comment at all. The Boring Company's main plans aren't to create new and novel tunnels. The Boring Company's goal is to create cheaper tunnels. Like, if I said I was planning on developing a wheel at 1/10th the cost of current wheels, I don't care that the wheel predates my innovation by millenia. I'm not attempting to _improve_ the wheel, I'm attempting to make it viable in an increasing numb…

> The Boring Company's main plans aren't to create new and novel tunnels. The Boring Company's goal is to create _cheaper_ tunnels. The Boring Company's main plans, as can be evidenced by their communications (such as their FAQ) and their commitments and attempted commitments to build actual projects, is to pitch a radically new, 21st century mode of mass transit that is really just a variation of personal rapid tran…

> The Boring Company's main plans, as can be evidenced by their communications (such as their FAQ) and their commitments and attempted commitments to build actual projects

Agree that this evidences their short-term plans (1-5 years), but I actually think it's a poor-proxy of evidence of their long-term (5+ years) plans.

I mostly agree with you about their short-term plans, but my understanding (which could be wrong!) was that they had longer-term plans, of which the proposed tunnels are stepping-stones and learning opportunities towards.

Though, I'll readily acknowledge that the evidence I have for their long-term plans is thin (mostly some interviews with Elon Musk about The Boring Company, and having seen similar developments at SpaceX), so if the counter-argument is that the long-term plans aren't well-enough evidenced to be worth considering, I wouldn't disagree.

I also think it's totally reasonable to argue that those long-term plans aren't realistic or a likely potential outcome.

> Oh, and for good measure, tunnels are not why subways are expensive. It's station caverns and ancillary infrastructure (such as procuring more rolling stock for the extension) that consumes most of the cost of a subway, so it's not clear that cheaper tunneling would actually meaningfully reduce the cost of building new subways.

I don't know that I agree with this. Tunneling is definitely a significant cost whenever it happens under a city. For example, the SR99 tunneling project in Seattle cost ~$2.1B dollars to build (https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Budget), and that doesn't involve any station caverns or rolling stock. It does, obviously, involve the highway finishings and road connections, but tunneling is a significant expense whenever it is required.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#117
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. The key cost savings that Musk envisions boils down to "build tunnels that are too small to put existing rolling stock in," which means that if the proposed personal rapid transit system turns out to be like every other PRT system and not work well, you're left with a tunnel that is too small to be useful for anything else.

Making an existing tunnel wider is vastly cheaper than building an equivalent tunnel from scratch. Simply knowing the soil composition makes a huge difference. In hard rock you can use drilling and blasting across long sections rather than just the leading edge. Alternatively, a TBM needs to remove significantly less material.

It is common courtesy to indicate you have editted your post.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#118
post #63
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The area under elevated lines is unusable only if you make it that way. Tokyo is great at using space below bridges and elevated lines: https://images.app.goo.gl/zpq5T3m5FPSr4eoN6 . As to weather, Chicago has tons of it and manages fine: https://chicago.curbed.com/2019/1/31/18204627/chicago-cold-w...

Yeah, we just set our tracks on fire. It's fine. (Well, that's the ground-level light rail — Metra — that does that)

This is the first time I've ever heard of Metra referred to as "light rail". Metra uses enormous diesel locomotives and runs on freight rail ROW (for the most part)--there's nothing "light" about it.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#119
post #79
post #67

I love watching all of Musk's projects, as every single one can be connected to Mars colonization. 1. Electric cars for transport, Check. 2. Solar panels and batteries for power generation and storage, check. 3. Tunnel digging equipment for making underground bases and transport, check. 4. Satellite communications for an entire planet, check. 5. Then finally, the actual rockets to get us there. Hopefully he will cont…

Has he specifically called out the connection or is this your pet conspiracy theory? It doesn’t seem too far off, to be honest.

What is special about 1, 2, and 4 specific to Mars colonization? Even 3. Like those things don’t even seem like the top of the list as the next things to tackle for planet colonization? (Is a Tesla the next important thing to tackle?) What about like food and environmental support since we can’t actually breath there?

This just sounds like some tortured narrative.

Re: The Boring Company will develop an underground “people mover” for Las Vegas

#120
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of Mars to me is silly. Mars is already worse off in terms of climate than Earth. Why not work to improve what we have? The only appeal I see is "uncharted territory" / wild west

1. Potential for finding evidence of life outside of the Earth, never mind scientific research into dozens of other topics. 2. Joy and sheer inspiration; why go to the moon, run a marathon, or compose a symphony? Joy and inspiration. 3. Potential to improve our own technology as we strive for the above points. Clear, clear evidence of this in parent's comment and after NASA's innovative tech. It's irrelevant if you p…

4. Removal of single-point extinction event if/when another dinosaur killer asteroid strikes Earth.
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