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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#81

Post by coldtea »

msla wrote: post #71
lixtra wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Three felonies a day is true almost everywhere in the world it’s clearly risky behavior to interact with police. Of course police is usually helpful just like the rest of humans. Your local mafia clan are also nice people as long as you play by their rules (you can study organized crime in favelas where it is an ordering element similar to police).

The Three Felonies A Day is an example of politics, not research, and has some rather motivated reasoning: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22530/does-the-... I'm on your side. Please don't make our shared side weaker by using poor arguments.

>The Three Felonies A Day is an example of politics, not research, and has some rather motivated reasoning:

A "sceptics" link is hardly refutation. These sites attract professional "minor detail pickers" and "technically-correct" pedants, who more often than not miss the forest for the trees.

The message is not the exact number of felonies per time period, it's that people can have all kind of laws broken and given causes to be arrested without them knowing it.

Even if it's 1 felony per month or 1 per year it's still more than enough, and that's the point of "thee felonies a day".

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#82

Post by jodrellblank »

dTal wrote: post #68
munmaek wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the US and everything to do with an asymmetric relationship. The police have immense power, you do not. What do you have to gain from interacting with the police? Now, compare this to what you stand to lose by interacting with the police. The rule is simple: don't interact with the police. They are not your friends, anything you do or say can and will be used against you at a wh…

Ethics. If everyone avoided talking to the police all the time, it would make their job more difficult, and they would be less effective. Their job is important, and so I would prefer that people talk to the police and make life easier for them. Therefore, to be ethically consistent, I too should talk to the police.

> If everyone avoided talking to the police all the time, it would make their job more difficult, and they would be less effective.

It would make their job more difficult, it doesn't automatically follow that they would be less effective. They might be as effective with less data if most of the data was noise, or be more effective by concentrating their efforts on fewer interactions and getting much better results from that, or become as effective or better by having to work harder. Or it might push them to develop different and better techniques.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#83

Post by EliRivers »

The principle here - that good community policing has a strong preventative, social aspect - is nothing new. It has long been expected that good community police officers know people in their area who might be at risk of going down a criminal path and use their judgement to intervene appropriately.

So is the objection (of some) that this principle is wrong, or is the objection that this aspect of what is generally considered good policing shouldn't be systematised and recorded?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#84

Post by thecatspaw »

bigiain wrote: post #54
vbuwivbiu wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

police add to database "NEGATIVE_BEHAVIOR: declined invitation into home"

also: "NEGATIVE_BEHAVIOUR: asked for a warrant"

also: "NEGATIVE_BEHAVIOUR: Citizen did not pick up can"

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#85

Post by lukevdp »

EliRivers wrote: post #83

The principle here - that good community policing has a strong preventative, social aspect - is nothing new. It has long been expected that good community police officers know people in their area who might be at risk of going down a criminal path and use their judgement to intervene appropriately. So is the objection (of some) that this principle is wrong, or is the objection that this aspect of what is generally co…

The objection here is “because data”

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#86

Post by gambiting »

taneq wrote: post #12
emptybits wrote: post #4

FTA: The Ontario Provincial Police say, “We can knock on someone’s door and say, ‘We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?’” Yikes. I understand the positive spin is the police care about the wellbeing of at-risk people with these visits. But wouldn't it also be true that anything and everything the police observe and believe as a result of such a visit could also be used against the resident or others in…

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

That is an incredibly US-centric view. I'd have absolutely zero problem talking to and interacting with police in Poland for instance.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#87

Post by mcv »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #64
mcv wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and that should prompt any country to look around, compare results, and make decisions on what they want to be like. In my opinion, a police that's feared rather than trusted, is a sign of a police state or totalitarian regime. If that's not what the country wants to be, then it's a problem that needs to be fixed.

I think there's this assumption that countries are like sentient beings who can 'decide' things. The reality of how a society functions, from cultural norms to laws to violence, is a unique combination of the whims and desires and priorities of the population, for better or for worse...countries don't want things, people do.

But countries do have a decision making process. It's called politics. It doesn't control every aspect of the country, and culture in particular is hard to control directly, but police is a government function, paid by taxes. If there's anything a country should be able to control, it's how their police operates.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#88

Post by dghf »

n4r9 wrote: post #75
jjtheblunt wrote: post #9

Sincere question: why is that not benevolent?

It might have benevolent intentions, but it's often very dangerous to put these technologies into the hands of law enforcement. It reminds me of an incident in the UK a few years ago, when the Metropolitan (London) police trialed a facial recognition camera on the high street. One man reacted by covering up his face as he walked past. He was grabbed aside and ordered to remove the covering. When he responded angrily,…

> It reminds me of an incident in the UK a few years ago

It was in January this year: https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/01/man-fined-refusing-show-face-...

But yes, it was very worrying, especially the plains-clothes offficer's assertion that not voluntarily submitting to facial recognition was itself enough to create the reasonable suspicion necessary to compel you to submit to it.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#89

Post by laumars »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #79
laumars wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all I want to say that I don't agree with the collection of this data. ...however there is an important distinction with Minority Report in that people were convicted of crimes based on premonitions. If this data was instead used to support at risk people - like how disruptive kids at school are often given support to help enable them to grow into better people - then I'd be more sympathetic with the motives…

> help enable them to grow into better people Wow, 'better people' - that's loaded and almost completely unspecified here. That's ripe for abuse. "become christian, god will make you a better person" "do as you're told, obey orders, you'll be a better person" "don't disrupt the teacher even if they're wrong, people don't like 'clever' people" I could go on all day. That's the thin end of a dangerous wedge. I don't li…

You're looking for outrage rather than trying to understand point I'm making and in doing so you've gotten the wrong end of the proverbial stick.

I'm not saying everyone should conform, I'm just saying some people need more help than others to make a life for themselves. Sometimes it's because of substance abuse, sometimes it's because of mental, physical or sexual abuse as a kid that leads them into a pattern of bad behaviour. Sometimes it's just circumstances or a mental attitude that is less dramatic than the aforementioned. But in each case it's better to work with them to help enable them to lead happy lives rather than ignore them, outcast them and then incarcerate them because they had nowhere else to turn.

If people are just disruptive because they're smart then they're just disruptive because they're smart. They're not an "at risk" group. By "at risk" we're talking people who turn to crime because they felt it was their only option in life. What I was talking about is supporting them so they realise they do have options. If they then choose crime, well that's then their choice. But in many instances people actually don't want that when they realise they have options in their life.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#90

Post by bgie »

gambiting wrote: post #86
taneq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

That is an incredibly US-centric view. I'd have absolutely zero problem talking to and interacting with police in Poland for instance.

Nope - european here - and police is not our friend
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