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Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

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Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#11
post #4

A very well written piece by Ian Lance Taylor. If you don't want to read it all, he summarizes it here: > In effect, then, the current state is what the blog post suggests at the very end: final decisions about the Go language are made by the core Go team, and the core Go team all work at Google, but there is no meaningful sense in which Google, apart from the core Go team, makes decisions about the language.

So is this good that the team is crafting the language for their own needs? Perhaps they will keep the language small and keep scope creep to a minimum?

Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#12
A lot of technology development happens at Google and FB and AirBnb these days because that is where the money is, so that is where the smart people go. In the previous generation they would have been at Xerox or Bell Labs. The work they do is often generic and of general interest. We should resist the idea that because the creators are sojourning in the bosom of some corporation, that corp "owns" the work. This is a key benefit of open source: we can take the freedom granted by being useful to monopoly capitalism and use it to liberate work for the public good, thus diffusing that monopoly power.

In practical terms, however, this means governance has to eventually flee the bounds of its corporate origin.

EDIT: Whenever I make this claim here it gets downvotes, but I've never heard anyone explain why - anyone care to explain?

Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#13
post #3
post #2

Well, I do have to log in with my google account to read it...

It loads okay in an incognito window for me. Are you sure logging in was mandatory? It should only be needed if you want to post to the mailing list.

Logging in to Google Groups has been mandatory forever if you had logged in to a Google account before in that browser. If there are no traces of past login sessions (such as when using Incognito mode) then it opens just fine for unauthenticated users.

Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#14
>The blog post starts by quoting @kapoorsunny asking why there can't be something like OpenGo, with a community implementation of generics. I hope that it is clear that the answer is that there could be. Nothing prevents that from happening. In particular, Google doesn't prevent that from happening.

No, but like with the community developed dependency solution, Google can arbitrarily chose not to include it in Go, even if itself proves successful.

So it's more like saying "you can have your own niche ports, just don't expect them to become part of the main language".

Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#15
post #3
post #2

Well, I do have to log in with my google account to read it...

It loads okay in an incognito window for me. Are you sure logging in was mandatory? It should only be needed if you want to post to the mailing list.

One of the annoying things about Google is that if it detects that at some point in the past you were logged in as a user it will not let you see Google Groups content without logging in (or going incognito).

There is no "just let me see the content, I can't be bothered to type my password right now" option, there is no "forget that I'm that user" option, the only option is to log in or to go incognito.

Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#17
Googler here, but these are my own opinions formed from less than a year at the company.

My observation of Google's culture is that it can be very difficult to see the ways in which they dominate projects they participate in because it's very difficult to keep perspective on how even small investments by Google tend to overwhelm the volume of other contributers project. Google has a lot of great, productive engineers and when they turn those folks fulltime to open source projects the results are very impressive. I feel this too with the open source work I'm adjacent to.

Go's situation is further exacerbated by the somewhat normal expectation at Google that programming systems often feel very top-down mandated to new employees (even if I think reality is that there is just a lot of cultural and tooling inertia there; in reality you can use whatever you want if you can make a case for it). The recent "fix Python's broken batteries" thing comes to mind as a conflict long overdue but suppressed by that culture of top-down mandates. Indeed, even without insider knowledge, rumors speak in hushed tones about how top-down GVR's leadership of Python was during his time working with Google. It seems like after he left, that notion has softened.

So even if folks on the Go project don't mean for it to feel like "google's language", it's still entirely possible that it does feel like Google exercises a lot of control over Go. This is a really significant and old challenge for big companies interacting with open source, but it's one that language teams have only recently started to really face at scale (see also: Rich Hickey's conflict with the Clojure community over overly biasing Clojure towards Datomic's interest and not helping to prioritize or yield resources or his oversight mechanisms to other people's needs).

The Go team was (and has been) also been slow to address the community's obvious and vocal need for some sort of templating solution. While it's fair to appreciate the difficulty of these discussions and designs, it's also the case that the Go project communicated their reservations rather poorly and created a lot of ill will that the language still suffers from today.

As languages are starting to open up and become more community driven (again, it used to be a lot more like this with small scripting language communities), the difference between a carefully guided language like Go and a language where anyone an contribute all the way down to the compiler and have a fair expectation of getting it included (like Haskell's GHC project) start to really contrast.

Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#19
post #14

> The blog post starts by quoting @kapoorsunny asking why there can't be something like OpenGo, with a community implementation of generics. I hope that it is clear that the answer is that there could be. Nothing prevents that from happening. In particular, Google doesn't prevent that from happening. No, but like with the community developed dependency solution, Google can arbitrarily chose not to include it in Go, e…

That's true for literally any project.

Re: Ian Lance Taylor's Response to “Go Is Google's Language”

#20
post #4

A very well written piece by Ian Lance Taylor. If you don't want to read it all, he summarizes it here: > In effect, then, the current state is what the blog post suggests at the very end: final decisions about the Go language are made by the core Go team, and the core Go team all work at Google, but there is no meaningful sense in which Google, apart from the core Go team, makes decisions about the language.

I think it's also worth highlighting this:

  no successful language-indeed, no successful free software project of any
  sort is a democracy [...]
  Successful languages pay attention to what people want, but to change
  the language according to what most people want is, I believe, a recipe
  for chaos and incoherence.  I believe that every successful language
  must have a coherent vision that is shared by a relatively small group
  of people.
which is essentially the "benevolent dictatorship" principle; it's hard to swallow because developers tend to imagine open source projects as "owned by the people".

I believe too that projects "owned by the people" end like The Homer™, and I'm actually curious, as the author, about:

  I would be interested to hear of a counter-example
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