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Why Fiction Beats Truth

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Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#71

Another: two polar opposite political stances can be true at the same time. Immigraton can be and is both good and bad. So are social help programs. Guns. Government intervention. Surveilance. Etc. Your truth is not the only truth. There are an infinite true perspectives on a issue. Another perspective is not false just because it opposes yours and yours is true.

> Your truth is not the only truth.

I don't think this is a helpful way of saying this. There is, in fact, only one truth in terms of what the facts are. All of us have different models in our head of what the world is like; these models are incomplete and often wrong. But the weakness of our models of the world won't stop reality from coming and biting us when we make bad decisions.

It is true, that sometimes when people disagree on a political idea, that what's happened is that one person believes A (which is true) and hasn't considered B; and another person believes B (which is true) and hasn't considered A. In that case, the best thing is for both people to learn both A and B (see a "perspective [which] is not false just because it opposes yours"), and revise their plan accordingly.

But in the case of polarized opinions, what normally happens is that at least one side believes X, which isn't true, (or is a gross exaggeration). In that case, while it may help to understand where the other person is coming from, it remains the fact that the right thing is for that person to stop believing that X is true.

So take immigration. Some people claim immigrants "take jobs away" from the native population; others claim that they 1) take jobs that the natives don't want, and 2) create as many jobs as they take by being customers as well as workers. All of these individually can be true; but at the end of the day, there will be a "number of jobs" and "number of unemployed" which is a fact, and will or will not be higher. That's the number that actually counts, not these hand-wavy predictions.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#72
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it's important to understand this strictly, and not come to the conclusion that all views are equal and equally true. To more mathematically minded people I'd explain it like this: two political stances can be correct at the same time, because political stances are projections of high-dimensional conceptual structures to lower-dimensional space. Both a circle and a rectangle are correct 2D projections of…

> two political stances can be correct at the same time I think that arguing that a political stance is "correct" or "wrong" isn't the best frame of reasoning here, because it implies that there might be some sort of formal reasoning process you could use to reach a common conclusion. Whereas humans do now work like that and politics does not work like that. There's no absolute morality, and there's no universal set…

> I think that arguing that a political stance is "correct" or "wrong" isn't the best frame of reasoning here, because it implies that there might be some sort of formal reasoning process you could use to reach a common conclusion. Whereas humans do now work like that and politics does not work like that.

I disagree with that. In so far a political stance refers primarily to objective reality (e.g. "should we introduce a carbon tax, and if yes, in what form?"), you should be able to reach common conclusion in a group of honest people. That people often don't doesn't mean it can't be done - it's a result of political discussions involving plenty of dishonest or disinformed people.

> There's no absolute morality, and there's no universal set of moral axioms you can get everyone to agree on.

Yes and no. There isn't an explicit, absolute morality, but that doesn't mean morality is a free variable. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, in exist in human brains - which are all the same hardware and mostly-same firmware. If you look at all the societies and cultures, there's plenty of values that are essentially universal. That's not an accident.

> arguing from specific->general in one direction and general->specific

I agree that people generally argue like this, and it's a bit orthogonal (if closer to the focus of daily experience) to what I wrote about. But humans are capable of doing these steps multiple times - e.g. simultaneously compare specifics of a situation against a specialization of a generic rule, and generalize the situation to compare against a set of general values. In so far as we're talking about objective reality, correct generalizations and specializations will converge on a self-consistent picture. And whatever subjectivity is caused by a difference in values has its limits - it's not a license to throw reason away and say that the whole space of all possible opinions is equally valid.

> Each of those is a lossy transformation. (...) But neither is more "correct" in a formal sense than the other.

I am arguing that - that two different lossy transformations can be equally "correct". My projection example is a lossy transformation after all. But this doesn't mean any two objects from the codomain of a lossy transformation are equally correct! Just like a hexagon is not a valid projection of a cylinder, or a pony isn't a valid JPEG compression of a human portrait, some generalizations are wrong, and some specializations are wrong.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#73
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> two political stances can be correct at the same time I think that arguing that a political stance is "correct" or "wrong" isn't the best frame of reasoning here, because it implies that there might be some sort of formal reasoning process you could use to reach a common conclusion. Whereas humans do now work like that and politics does not work like that. There's no absolute morality, and there's no universal set…

> I think that arguing that a political stance is "correct" or "wrong" isn't the best frame of reasoning here, because it implies that there might be some sort of formal reasoning process you could use to reach a common conclusion. Whereas humans do now work like that and politics does not work like that. I disagree with that. In so far a political stance refers primarily to objective reality (e.g. "should we introdu…

> (e.g. "should we introduce a carbon tax, and if yes, in what form?"), you should be able to reach common conclusion in a group of honest people.

Really? Even assuming that everyone agrees on the model of policy responses - introducing tax X has result Y - people will still have strong opinions about the distributive effects of those and even the relative importance of the environmental effects. People don't usually come out and say "I'm not willing to spend a dollar to prevent Miami and Bangladesh being submerged", because that sounds bad, but they come very close to it.

> some generalizations are wrong, and some specializations are wrong.

On this we agree - some models are just delusional "motivated reasoning"; Sandy Hook "truthers" etc.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#74

This truth v. fiction binary is common thinking but far too simplistic. The idea that there is just a set of facts on one side of the fence and on the other is all the lies -- and the dumb hoi polloi just tends to always go for the "bad side"... This is just simplistic, unimaginative, unrealistic thinking. Even a cluster of the most brutally "true" of facts can be so readily misconstrued and misapplied and result and…

> the hoi polloi

Pedantry: "The hoi polloi* is redundant — in Greek, hoi is a definite article equivalent to "the," so "the hoi polloi" is "the the many." [0] But yes, that's how the term has passed into common parlance, just as "ATM machine" is similarly redundant.

[0] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Hoi_polloi

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#75
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that arguing that a political stance is "correct" or "wrong" isn't the best frame of reasoning here, because it implies that there might be some sort of formal reasoning process you could use to reach a common conclusion. Whereas humans do now work like that and politics does not work like that. I disagree with that. In so far a political stance refers primarily to objective reality (e.g. "should we introdu…

> (e.g. "should we introduce a carbon tax, and if yes, in what form?"), you should be able to reach common conclusion in a group of honest people. Really? Even assuming that everyone agrees on the model of policy responses - introducing tax X has result Y - people will still have strong opinions about the distributive effects of those and even the relative importance of the environmental effects. People don't usually…

> Even assuming that everyone agrees on the model of policy responses - introducing tax X has result Y

This is a purely objective question, and can be discussed between honest parties until a common conclusion is reached.

> people will still have strong opinions about the distributive effects of those and even the relative importance of the environmental effects.

This is a mix of potentially subjective values and objective statements about how those values are affected by proposed solution; I argue that even if a common conclusion cannot be reached, we can usually come pretty close to it.

> People don't usually come out and say "I'm not willing to spend a dollar to prevent Miami and Bangladesh being submerged", because that sounds bad, but they come very close to it.

People don't usually think in these categories; between lack of information, misinformation, opportunity costs (no one has time to be up to date on everything, or even to think through everything) and psychological discounting ("I worry about securing food for my children tomorrow, not about some uncertain future 50 years from now"), you end up with people who believe in things that are wrong even when taking their own subjective values into account.

I feel the problem we have isn't with subjectiveness - most political issues are objective enough in principle. We have a computational problem - we can't get enough people to think and talk through issues deeply enough. Instead, people fall back to computationally efficient heuristics - ideologies and soundbites. Pattern matching everything into beliefs like "capitalism is bad", or "government regulation is bad" is a faulty generalization, but it saves on thinking.

It may be that at the scale of our current problems, this computational barrier is in practice insurmountable. If so, we're fucked, and I'm not sure what to do. But it's probably why there's so much pushback against democracy from the "intellectual elites" - because they realize that this problem only scales with the number of people you need to involve to make a decision.

(N.b. trust is another computation-saving hack humanity has used since forever, and what enables us to have societies as large as today. The trust that other people don't try to hurt me, that they have my interests in mind. It's damn effective, and that's why I'm particularly hateful towards individual, company and government activities that erode this trust.)

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#76
post #6

Fourth: for almost anything in life, knowing the truth doesn't matter in practice - instead, people believe things that make for good social objects, i.e. catalysts of discussions with other people. In cases were being wrong leads to direct and near-immediate consequences, people tend to learn the truth quickly. The problem with that is that today, a lot more things have delayed effects, or effects that only material…

>In cases were being wrong leads to direct and near-immediate consequences, people tend to learn the truth quickly.

Hard disagree there. In genuine life-or-death scenarios, the two most common reactions are blind panic and denial. If you're unlucky enough to find yourself in a smoke-filled aeroplane cabin on an airport runway, your fellow travellers will probably do one of two things - frantically stampede towards the exits, or calmly gather their belongings from the overhead bins. Increasingly, you'll see people moving towards the flames to film them on their phone.

Even after people have repeatedly experienced a disaster like a flood, hurricane or wildfire, they often deny the possibility of a recurrence.

https://www.newsweek.com/disaster-and-denial-194880

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#77
post #6

Fourth: for almost anything in life, knowing the truth doesn't matter in practice - instead, people believe things that make for good social objects, i.e. catalysts of discussions with other people. In cases were being wrong leads to direct and near-immediate consequences, people tend to learn the truth quickly. The problem with that is that today, a lot more things have delayed effects, or effects that only material…

>In cases were being wrong leads to direct and near-immediate consequences, people tend to learn the truth quickly. Hard disagree there. In genuine life-or-death scenarios, the two most common reactions are blind panic and denial. If you're unlucky enough to find yourself in a smoke-filled aeroplane cabin on an airport runway, your fellow travellers will probably do one of two things - frantically stampede towards th…

I was thinking more along "being correct about change you're supposed to get in a shop" than "being correct about what to do in a fire", but still, I said people learn. Life-or-death situations are pretty rare and an individual is unlikely to experience them enough times to learn from them (much less if any small mistake leads to the tragic outcome). So the learning happens at the institutional level (fire departments are pretty smart about what to do in a fire), and best individuals can do is get trained.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#78

I'm a big fan of Harari's Sapiens, like a lot of people. But... I think the.. narrative gets into inevitably sticky territory. It is, after all, a narrative explaining the role of narratives... Pure truths and falsehoods are generally small. e=mc^2 or F=ma. Cesar crossed the Rubicon in 49 BC. Facts, baiscally. Einstein heralded the atomic age, when man began to master matter & energy. Newton's mechanics became both a…

It's funny you mention E=mc^2 and F=ma in the same sentence as pure truths, because the former suggests the latter is only an approximation. The consequence of special relativity is that F=ma is not a pure truth, it's an approximation of the world. A useful one at that.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#80
post #51

Someone described[1] preferring the 'capitalist enemy' FT, to the NYT, because "the Financial Times is just a better paper. It covers the world as it is - a global battle not of ideas or values, but of economic and political interests." (And "the Times [is] bloated with opinion pieces and op-eds".) So here we have a op ed, exploring why people believe fictions, which somehow fails to emphasize that it's economically…

> fails to emphasize it's economically profitable I don't know how you could read it and walk away with that impression. It's very clear that they are saying social cohesion allows the organization of millions of people into productive societies as we know them. There are things to disagree with, but that sticking point doesn't make sense.

Sorry I was unclear: "it's economically profitable to lie to people" ... for the agent promulgating the lie. Which incentivizes the creation of widely-believed fictions, despite societal cost. Climate change is dishonest scientists; sugar is healthy wonder-food; opioids are low-risk; vaccination causes autism.
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