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Scrum is fragile, not Agile

dennisweyland.net

41–50 of 329 posts

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#41
I've worked on more than 10 different Scrum teams, and have seen it done well exactly once. When it was good, it was very good.

But we spent one entire workday (7 hours) on each sprint follow-up meeting, and then another entire workday planning the next sprint. That is what it took to write the stories, break them down into one-point pieces, prioritize with the PO, pass the stories out to the devs, etc.

Most places just don't plan for enough time to do things right, and quality is second priority, so no matter what methodology you use, you lose, because no cared about doing it right to begin with.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#42

At the company I work at, we have the following scrum anti-patterns. I wish I knew, whether we could "do scrum right" or just move onto something simpler (fta; priority queue) * Daily standup, nobody wants to be at. We have multiple teams arrive, with roughly 20 people in a small room. Some people stand, some people sit. Sometimes the front-end team goes, sometimes the back-end team goes. Its limited to 15 minutes, s…

I passionately hate being asked for "commitments". If it's stuff of any reasonable complexity or novelty I will have no idea how long it will take and therefore can't make any commitments. The only thing I can commit to is to make sure that people don't waste time and work towards the goal. The problem is that management has no problem wasting a lot of time with useless meetings or not committing to the final feature set but instead changing requirements all the time.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#43

In my very surface-level, western understanding of Chinese philosophy, Agile seems very much like Taoism and Scrum is like Confucianism, in several ways. The Agile Manifesto describes a set of ideals but gives no true set of instructions to follow, to do so would not be the Agile way. More than anything, it prescribes an attitude around which you should generally approach things. Scrum conversely gives rules for how…

The comparison may be very apt. After all, a key tenet of Taoism is that the Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. It may very well be that an Agile development process that can be fully specified and documented is not truly Agile.

Somehow I'm reminded of "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" but I'm not sure which side it supports.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#44
post #26

At the company I work at, we have the following scrum anti-patterns. I wish I knew, whether we could "do scrum right" or just move onto something simpler (fta; priority queue) * Daily standup, nobody wants to be at. We have multiple teams arrive, with roughly 20 people in a small room. Some people stand, some people sit. Sometimes the front-end team goes, sometimes the back-end team goes. Its limited to 15 minutes, s…

First of all, most issues with process issues are more a reflection of the organization and what drives them than the process. I would say you should start talking about, 'Our process' instead of 'Scrum'. >These things combined have dragged down the happiness of the people I work with, but we all feel imprisoned by it. I have a stack of scrum books here I plan on reading, I figure this process isn't going away and I…

However, many companies face similar issues. For a moment I thought the OP worked for my company because we face the same issues (that's not possible however because in person stand ups are banned at our company due to the distributed nature).

1) While I agree that 20 people seems like too large a team in general, I have a fundamental problem with the idea that scrum can determine what size team is right.

What seems to be happening, it appears to me, is that we have a fair idea of how large a meeting can be before it becomes unwieldy, and scrum has a daily meeting as it's fundamental component, so basically decides that for it's fundamental component to be effective there shouldn't be more than 8 people so therefore teams shouldn't be larger than 8 people.

That seems backwards to me.

2) Almost every scrum training usually has a separate scrum master. I do think the idea of a team member being the scrum master makes a lot of sense and would probably alleviate a lot of the concerns.

3) Scrum story points are supposed to reflect end user benefits. A refacorin's benefit will only show up after several sprints. In the meanwhile you hurt your velocity significantly because your refactoring is likely to be 0 points. Now, this actually makes sense to me, but the issue is that in most places management is carefully monitoring velocity and is gonna hold the drop against the team.

To be fair though, I think this is another issue where the real problem is management converting a measurement metric into a target, which basically negates any use it may have as a metric.

My biggest issues with scrum are: 1) A daily standup is ridiculous. It's highly disruptive and gives me the feeling of someone constantly peeking over my shoulder. A better strategy is a simple email when someone has an update, or a blocker to the rest of the team. Very few of my projects are done in a single day, and it's psychologically stressful to join every meeting saying I worked on story A, will continue working on story A for 3-4 days in a row, while the managerial types rattle off a list of meetings they attended, emails they sent, trainings they completed, etc. 2) Sprints are far too inflexible. Each story should basically define a new Sprint for the people involved in that story, which may or may not be longer than originally expected. I don't see the point of having a fixed 2 week period that applies to everyone. Why not just have a weekly or biweekly meeting where you go over everyone's stuff and see where you stand. It's basically a more flexible version of what sprints try to achieve, without the psychological issues created by having to fit things into a Sprint or alternatively having to carry it over into a whole new Sprint. That same meeting can track how many points were earned since the last meeting and you have your velocity being tracked as well.

Retrospectives are great. But they should be included in the same 2 week catch up meeting.

I find scrum tries to create a lot of artificial deadlines, possibly to encourage people to break things into smaller pieces and make regular progress, but I find that's not how people usually work. In my experience people tend to work more in spurts, delivering a ton of features and bug fixes over a couple of days, and then going relatively quiet for the next few days. Not because they aren't working, but because thats just how things usually pan out since software development is a decidedly non linear process.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#45
post #12

He's not wrong. Having been involved in the Agile movement since before the term Agile was coined, I think of Scrum as the least interesting of Agile processes, but also the most successful in terms of adoption. I used to think that was a contradiction. Now I think it's almost inevitable. I wrote more about it elsewhere [1], but the basic deal is that most companies have other priorities than being effective, so the…

Scrum won out because it was waterfall in disguise. Commitments and sprints become terribly destructive over time.

Waterfall with little or no modelling. If you write the wrong system, you are left with nothing. With waterfall you could at least start over with your design artefacts.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asked to deliver a feature that would take 4 weeks to implement without tech debt in two weeks. This requires sacrifices like ensuring network connections remain alive, handling exceptions, optimizing queries, abstracting functions for re-use, handling all the data input scenarios, etc. This creates a confusing code-base with lots of IF statements, copy/pasted code, data modifications from several areas of the…

>You're asked to deliver a feature that would take 4 weeks to implement without tech debt in two weeks. Well there's your problem. How is that inherent to scrum?

Because it's a sprint. You've got a finish line and you're racing towards it. Businesses don't function without prediction, and refactoring gets cut before roadmapped features. If feature development is a bottleneck in company growth, debt will grow, quickly.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#47
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managers are the only people that like daily standups, so far as I can tell. I've never figured out why you couldn't just do it over slack or equivalent. It's massively inefficient to get everyone to meet up in the morning.

Managers need to justify their jobs. Reading off a slack report every day seems too simple and not worthy the salary they're paid. Compare that to a large meeting and live status updates, everyone stands, etc. Now that is some "serious work" happening. Think of it from the point of view that managers have mangers they report to. When shit goes wrong they have to cover their asses. "So it's late. But did you check on…

It's not like it's a requirement that "managers" be at a standup meeting. Some of the best teams I've worked on have done daily standups without managers, and I dare to say most of us enjoyed them and found them productive!

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#48
post #28
post #16

To think of scrum as a process is wrong. It's actually an organizational pattern language. The idea is that social interactions are a complex system and there are patterns of interactions which, from experience, seem to work in certain contexts. http://www.scrumabok.org/ It's not even software specific. Which is actually a strength. Example, one common misconception is the daily standup is a status meeting. In fact y…

I'm already able to pivot every day—it's part of the autonomy inherent to me being hired as a professional. I can make decisions about my work, and ask my colleagues to make decisions about our group work, as necessary to deliver on business needs. Making a process and a specific time about how to get approval to pivot is less agile.

You ability to pivot as an individual is already limited based on your team. In fact a unilateral pivot is destructive and can inflict pain on everyone else. I'm not sure how having implicit and ad-hoc patterns of interactions is agile. Why? because you can't improve what you can't see.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#49
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scrum won out because it was waterfall in disguise. Commitments and sprints become terribly destructive over time.

Scrum is iterated waterfall. By iterating faster, inaccurate estimation is shown up sooner. On the other hand, developers are treated like cogs in a feature factory, munching through backlog items fed to them by product managers. I think it works well enough, for a few years. I don't think it's sustainable - the blinkers of "sprints" encourage growth of tech debt because nobody has an eye on the future and Product wo…

The biggest problem with Scrum is it lacks any sort of design phase. You do the minimum. Oh, it doesn't work quite right? We'll fix it in the next sprint...

The "spiral" model is closer to a true iterated waterfall. I've seen it used successfully in more mature companies.

Re: Scrum is fragile, not Agile

#50
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like standup on my current team. We're in an open office already, and just (physically!) stand up and say "I'm doing X today". Whole thing never goes over 2-3 minutes, and it's a friendly way to keep everyone up to date with the bigger picture.

It's similar at my office. We also use it to let the rest of the team know on occasions when you're blocked on something.

Why wait until a meeting to air that you are blocked, just sort it out when you become blocked. Where is the agility?
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