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Why Fiction Beats Truth

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#11

Post by askafriend »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #6

Fourth: for almost anything in life, knowing the truth doesn't matter in practice - instead, people believe things that make for good social objects, i.e. catalysts of discussions with other people. In cases were being wrong leads to direct and near-immediate consequences, people tend to learn the truth quickly. The problem with that is that today, a lot more things have delayed effects, or effects that only material…

Very well articulated. I’d been thinking about something similar and I thank you for putting into concrete words the vague, abstract ideas tossing around in my head.

That to some degree, the truth doesn’t matter in practice is a very sobering and very frustrating realization.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#12

Post by MaxBarraclough »

avip wrote: post #9

2 must have Churchill quotes: Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on (unsourced, but why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? he deserves it)

> why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow?

Because it isn't true. Was the irony intentional?

Apparently [0] it's from Roosevelt’s secretary of state, Cordell Hull.

[0] https://richardlangworth.com/galloping-lie , also https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/oct/09...

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#13

Post by trabant00 »

Another: two polar opposite political stances can be true at the same time. Immigraton can be and is both good and bad. So are social help programs. Guns. Government intervention. Surveilance. Etc.

Your truth is not the only truth. There are an infinite true perspectives on a issue. Another perspective is not false just because it opposes yours and yours is true.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#14

Post by [deleted] »

avip wrote: post #9

2 must have Churchill quotes: Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on (unsourced, but why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? he deserves it)

[deleted]

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#15

Post by [deleted] »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #12
avip wrote: post #9

2 must have Churchill quotes: Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on (unsourced, but why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? he deserves it)

> why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? Because it isn't true. Was the irony intentional? Apparently [0] it's from Roosevelt’s secretary of state, Cordell Hull. [0] https://richardlangworth.com/galloping-lie , also https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/oct/09...

[deleted]

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#16

Post by [deleted] »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #12
avip wrote: post #9

2 must have Churchill quotes: Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on (unsourced, but why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? he deserves it)

> why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? Because it isn't true. Was the irony intentional? Apparently [0] it's from Roosevelt’s secretary of state, Cordell Hull. [0] https://richardlangworth.com/galloping-lie , also https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/oct/09...

[deleted]

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#17

Post by cfmcdonald »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #12
avip wrote: post #9

2 must have Churchill quotes: Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on (unsourced, but why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? he deserves it)

> why not attribute it to Churchill anyhow? Because it isn't true. Was the irony intentional? Apparently [0] it's from Roosevelt’s secretary of state, Cordell Hull. [0] https://richardlangworth.com/galloping-lie , also https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/oct/09...

The original original is from Jonathan Swift: "Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect: like a man, who hath thought of a good repartee when the discourse is changed, or the company parted; or like a physician, who hath found out an infallible medicine, after the patient is dead."

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#18

Post by TeMPOraL »

trabant00 wrote: post #13

Another: two polar opposite political stances can be true at the same time. Immigraton can be and is both good and bad. So are social help programs. Guns. Government intervention. Surveilance. Etc. Your truth is not the only truth. There are an infinite true perspectives on a issue. Another perspective is not false just because it opposes yours and yours is true.

I agree, but it's important to understand this strictly, and not come to the conclusion that all views are equal and equally true.

To more mathematically minded people I'd explain it like this: two political stances can be correct at the same time, because political stances are projections of high-dimensional conceptual structures to lower-dimensional space. Both a circle and a rectangle are correct 2D projections of a 3D cylinder. But if your 2D projection of a cylinder looks like a hexagon, you're wrong.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#19

Post by Buttons840 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #6

Fourth: for almost anything in life, knowing the truth doesn't matter in practice - instead, people believe things that make for good social objects, i.e. catalysts of discussions with other people. In cases were being wrong leads to direct and near-immediate consequences, people tend to learn the truth quickly. The problem with that is that today, a lot more things have delayed effects, or effects that only material…

Well said.

So, someone spouts a well researched conspiracy and others engage in a conversation and the person gets to recite their well prepared talking points. That feels good to the person, that's positive reinforcement. That's a story they can take to their online echo chamber for even more positive feedback.

They hold on to the conspiracy as something to talk about, and as something they can feel superior about.

So should we just avoid debate? That doesn't seem right.

Re: Why Fiction Beats Truth

#20

Post by a9a »

I’m not sure I agree with the last line that these groups prize unity at the expense of truth. My takeaway from the rest of the article is that trust (performed as social cohesion) is the underlying social value that we are actually talking about in many of these conversations. Both verifiable truth (e.g. scientific predictions that we can trust) and fictions (e.g. elaborate stories that give us a shortcut to trust, as mentioned in the article) play a part in building trust. Successful organizations understand the right mix of truth and fiction to inspire trust—the morals of bible stories are powerful because they are “true” for many people to the extent that seem to reflect many people’s day to day experience. So, rather than unity vs truth, maybe we should think of unity as a function of a variety of strategies, one of which is truth? And successful organizations as ones that find the right balance?
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