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Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

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81–90 of 116 posts

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why this trope about China ruling the world is crap. Generally speaking they are good at copying, reverse engineering, and cheap labor. The country's MO is to steal designs and process and implement better. When the west finally figures out how to stop letting China steal/copy - then the West will continue innovating, and China won't have anything to make.

Except the same empty arguments were made against Japan, and were levelled against the nations producing the imported cotton cloth that people were starting to buy in preference to long established Lancashire cotton mills. "Don't buy Japanese electronics or motorcycles, they only make poor cheap copies" would be commonly heard in the seventies and early eighties. They easily - and quickly - moved past that phase, as…

I absolutely don't know anyone who was saying that about Japanese electronics in the 1970s in my part of US flyover country. Sony was considered to be one of the very best in the world, and my family was greatly disappointed in the 1980s when Sony moved a lot of manufacturing to Mexico and they had to fix many cold solder joints on TV sets. If you wanted a good reel to reel tape deck, Teac was your first choice.

One thing left out of this formulation is that it was realized at some point, certainly by the 1970s for electronics, that the Japanese added "and improve", which no one says about the Chinese. Who are said to have a pattern more than a century old of steadily decreasing quality until the customer complains. Different culture, vastly different societal trust levels, Japan high, China low, different results.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#82
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised or even judgemental about it - given a choice between respecting foreign-imposed IP law and the prosperity of your own people, who wouldn't choose the latter? Especially after such wonderful things as the opium wars. What I am surprised by is how long the US ignored the threat of moving production and knowledge to China, under the dogma of free trade.

Neither am I. What does surprise me is that nations and industries keep doing it expecting "this time is different". Despite the regularity across history of first supplying the tools and training - whether shipbuilding, looms, steel making or iPhone assembly and chip fab, then claim they'll never be able to design as well, and can only copy. Sometime later another industry sails inevitably off to some far flung regi…

I was surprised to read that some WASPs are distantly related to 19th vent opium smuggling. For example the Forbes family made their fortune in opium and now they have a business magazine

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#83
My friends in telcom from years ago would regularly tell us about H techs who would come install equipment. And while doing so would disassemble every rack and switch in the room and photograph everything.

Thats an unprovable allegation, but I know these folks to be reliable sources of information. Having read about the internal incentives for techs providing IP intel and outright rewarding of theft, I'm convinced.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#84
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the comments for the article? This has the width of the Overton Window laid bare for you. The consent has already been manufactured! Nobody dare cross the line and say how cool they are with Huawei products. We have short memories, not so recently the Koreans were the ones doing all the IP theft, but nowadays Samsung is legit. Or you can go further back to when everything except and IBM PC (or Apple) was…

I just have a meta question. Was there a recent article or something that brought the term 'Overton window' into common use? I did a little digging and it seems like it's been a term for a few decades, but I don't recall ever seeing it before this year. Now I see it used all the time.

Because it helps explain why events that would have ended any previous US Presidential administration can happen multiple times a day, but not even move the needle in the public discourse.

Obama saluted a Marine with a Starbucks cup in his hand and it was national news. Trump sided with a murderous dictator against a former Vice President yesterday, and nothing.

Anyone who pays attention to American politics lately has been experienced the Overton Window shifting a lot.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#85

My friends in telcom from years ago would regularly tell us about H techs who would come install equipment. And while doing so would disassemble every rack and switch in the room and photograph everything. Thats an unprovable allegation, but I know these folks to be reliable sources of information. Having read about the internal incentives for techs providing IP intel and outright rewarding of theft, I'm convinced.

Why wouldn’t Huawei just buy a switch? Why would the customer tolerate someone spending 10x longer on an install and taking apart all their other crap? For that matter why were they able to take apart the other switches at all? Wouldn’t that have taken the system down? Were they storing inactive equipment in their live rack? None of this makes a lot of sense.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#86
post #85

My friends in telcom from years ago would regularly tell us about H techs who would come install equipment. And while doing so would disassemble every rack and switch in the room and photograph everything. Thats an unprovable allegation, but I know these folks to be reliable sources of information. Having read about the internal incentives for techs providing IP intel and outright rewarding of theft, I'm convinced.

Why wouldn’t Huawei just buy a switch? Why would the customer tolerate someone spending 10x longer on an install and taking apart all their other crap? For that matter why were they able to take apart the other switches at all? Wouldn’t that have taken the system down? Were they storing inactive equipment in their live rack? None of this makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, the only way I can see that happening is if there's a bunch of unused equipment in the room that you can take apart without unplugging - but since when do you let a bunch of foreign techs hang out in one of your server rooms by themselves? Not likely.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#87
post #11

Anecdote. May be untrue. Don't trust everything you read online, etc. A friend was a 7 year Ericsson employee (ending in 2012). In his opinion, Ericsson's networking equipment was universally acknowledged as having slow deployment times. Nokia's stuff was much faster to deploy. When Huawei hired the ex-Nokia engineers at 2.5x their previous salary, they asked them how Nokia did particular tasks. The engineer would sa…

I remember reading an article about how a Chinese company would hire European bakers to demonstrate how they bake breads ad nauseum until they could reproduce and automate each steps perfectly. The thinking was "they [chinese] have no imagination so they stick to known processes and don't deviate". Don't really know what to make of that.

What to make of that is it's a racist belief that Western people hide behind to convince themselves that sure, Chinese people might be smarter, but it's a rote-memorization non-creative type of intelligence and China will never be a leader. They're wrong, and they'll be blindsided by their own racist underestimation.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#88
post #85

My friends in telcom from years ago would regularly tell us about H techs who would come install equipment. And while doing so would disassemble every rack and switch in the room and photograph everything. Thats an unprovable allegation, but I know these folks to be reliable sources of information. Having read about the internal incentives for techs providing IP intel and outright rewarding of theft, I'm convinced.

Why wouldn’t Huawei just buy a switch? Why would the customer tolerate someone spending 10x longer on an install and taking apart all their other crap? For that matter why were they able to take apart the other switches at all? Wouldn’t that have taken the system down? Were they storing inactive equipment in their live rack? None of this makes a lot of sense.

I have no idea myself. Speculating, but at the top policy level, perhaps they did just that (why not?). At the field tech level, maybe they were photographing "just in case".

Also, I assume by disassembling racks, they were cataloging which equipment was used, and its configuration. It's akin to snooping a competitors shop to see their process, as much as their equipment.

Again, I'm foggy on details since I wasn't there, but these guys are not surprised by alleged IP theft and stories of incentivized theft after their experiences. I don't have the insight to think really hard about the motivations of the H techs, and this is just colloquial / anecdotal so don't expect yourself to be convinced.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#89
post #86
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn’t Huawei just buy a switch? Why would the customer tolerate someone spending 10x longer on an install and taking apart all their other crap? For that matter why were they able to take apart the other switches at all? Wouldn’t that have taken the system down? Were they storing inactive equipment in their live rack? None of this makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, the only way I can see that happening is if there's a bunch of unused equipment in the room that you can take apart without unplugging - but since when do you let a bunch of foreign techs hang out in one of your server rooms by themselves? Not likely.

According to these guys, they'd come in to do an installation at 2-3AM (standard time for maintaining a cell network), but security was lax and they would be left to do their own thing mostly unsupervised. These were smaller shops that were later bought out by the big handful recognize today. They were dumb. Maybe they let it happen, but it takes two to tango.

According to the particular story that I might be foggy on, the engineer responsible for the station and surrounding stations came in to check in on the installation unannounced, and the people on site were not really aware or concerned that they were in back working. The engineer found out what was going on, and everyone shrugged, saying that what harm could they do, etc etc.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#90
post #22

Just huawei? Isn't that the case for china's rise overall? Wasn't the basis of US-China relations the past 50 years a simple transfer of technology/capital for cheap labor/lax environmental regulations? We looked the other way while china took our technology and money. And they looked away as we exploited cheap labor and lax environmental law. It was a wage, technology, capital and environmental law arbitrage. It ter…

The US economy has benifited enourmously from its trade with China; that those benifits have not gone to the rust belt is really America's own choice.

No surprise the rust belt is Trump's campaigning grounds.

Americans didn't choose for the great lakes economies to collapse. It was the collective decision of the ownership class.

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