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Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

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Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#41

Post by liability »

ordu wrote: post #17
vneumanarc wrote: post #12

Just huawei? Isn't that the case for china's rise overall? Wasn't the basis of US-China relations the past 50 years a simple transfer of technology/capital for cheap labor/lax environmental regulations? We looked the other way while china took our technology and money. And they looked away as we exploited cheap labor and lax environmental law. It was a wage, technology, capital and environmental law arbitrage. It ter…

Yeah, it strongly reminds me the media of USSR. They switched narratives in a perfect unison with politics like that. Sometimes they even did it ahead of politics preparing ground for changes in politics. I wonder what the mechanics of it might be in a democratic society. It was easy to do in USSR: top-down structure allowed state to rule media by orders. But democracy is more nuanced than that I believe. At least I'…

> "I wonder what the mechanics of it might be in a democratic society. It was easy to do in USSR: top-down structure allowed state to rule media by orders."

In this case I doubt there is any sort of formal command structure, or in fact any centralized orchestration at all. Rather what we're seeing is an emergent phenomenon, not unlike fish schooling or birds swarming. All the actors involved are taking cues from their peers and otherwise consume more or less the same information from the environment. Combine that with a relatively uniform philosophy or worldview and the appearance of orchestrated activity emerges.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#42

Post by rayiner »

ordu wrote: post #17
vneumanarc wrote: post #12

Just huawei? Isn't that the case for china's rise overall? Wasn't the basis of US-China relations the past 50 years a simple transfer of technology/capital for cheap labor/lax environmental regulations? We looked the other way while china took our technology and money. And they looked away as we exploited cheap labor and lax environmental law. It was a wage, technology, capital and environmental law arbitrage. It ter…

Yeah, it strongly reminds me the media of USSR. They switched narratives in a perfect unison with politics like that. Sometimes they even did it ahead of politics preparing ground for changes in politics. I wonder what the mechanics of it might be in a democratic society. It was easy to do in USSR: top-down structure allowed state to rule media by orders. But democracy is more nuanced than that I believe. At least I'…

In every society, there are accepted narratives everyone is expected to subscribe to. This doesn’t need to happen by coercion; humans have an innate need to repeat and strengthen the basic narratives that are part of their society.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#43

Post by chvid »

vneumanarc wrote: post #31
ordu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it strongly reminds me the media of USSR. They switched narratives in a perfect unison with politics like that. Sometimes they even did it ahead of politics preparing ground for changes in politics. I wonder what the mechanics of it might be in a democratic society. It was easy to do in USSR: top-down structure allowed state to rule media by orders. But democracy is more nuanced than that I believe. At least I'…

It's in all states. It just becomes more noticable in times of stress ( economic, military, societal ). Go read about the mccarthy era, the red scare before that or the yellow peril before that. Or go read about how how china and the chinese were viewed pre-1970 to how the media changed perceptions during the 1970s with deng's visit, etc as they prepared to open trade relations. Read about how chinatowns historically…

I think it is the Trump 2020 campaign.

Essentially Trump has figured out he can win the 2020 election by going to war with China.

So it is anti-China all over; from smearing of political opponents to policy to information campaigning.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#44

Post by ethbro »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #34
chvid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US economy has benifited enourmously from its trade with China; that those benifits have not gone to the rust belt is really America's own choice.

Some of the US economy has benefited enormously from its trade with China. It's hard to imagine anything more cynical than the US blaming China for the poverty and job losses caused knowingly by US corporations taking advantage of cheap Chinese labour and resources.

It's like coal mining. What politician is going to say "Mechanization and the economics of renewables are taking your jobs", as opposed to "Environmental regulations are taking your jobs"?

The former is worse in every way, with the exception of being true.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#45

Post by shaki-dora »

late2part wrote: post #28
johnchristopher wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading an article about how a Chinese company would hire European bakers to demonstrate how they bake breads ad nauseum until they could reproduce and automate each steps perfectly. The thinking was "they [chinese] have no imagination so they stick to known processes and don't deviate". Don't really know what to make of that.

Which is why this trope about China ruling the world is crap. Generally speaking they are good at copying, reverse engineering, and cheap labor. The country's MO is to steal designs and process and implement better. When the west finally figures out how to stop letting China steal/copy - then the West will continue innovating, and China won't have anything to make.

This stereotyping is as old as industrialisation. "Made in Germany" was originally a label forced upon the country by the UK, who wanted customers to chose their superior products over the newcomer's low-quality knockoffs. We all know how that turned out.

It was then repeated with Japan, South Korea, and now China.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#46

Post by 50656E6973 »

ordu wrote: post #17
vneumanarc wrote: post #12

Just huawei? Isn't that the case for china's rise overall? Wasn't the basis of US-China relations the past 50 years a simple transfer of technology/capital for cheap labor/lax environmental regulations? We looked the other way while china took our technology and money. And they looked away as we exploited cheap labor and lax environmental law. It was a wage, technology, capital and environmental law arbitrage. It ter…

Yeah, it strongly reminds me the media of USSR. They switched narratives in a perfect unison with politics like that. Sometimes they even did it ahead of politics preparing ground for changes in politics. I wonder what the mechanics of it might be in a democratic society. It was easy to do in USSR: top-down structure allowed state to rule media by orders. But democracy is more nuanced than that I believe. At least I'…

>top-down structure allowed state to rule media by orders. But democracy is more nuanced than that I believe. At least I've never witnessed ahead-of-time switch in narratives of democratic media.

If you're referring to "western" or american media, it's not democratic, it's primarily corporate, which is top down, ruled by orders. Straying too far outside the narrative/overton window will get you fired

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#47

Post by jcims »

Bootvis wrote: post #39
jcims wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s definitely it, timing is dead on. Thanks!

It was commonly used on Slashdot before (where I learned the concept).

Interesting. Used to love slashdot, have an account at the bottom end of the five digit range, but i cant do it any more.

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#49

Post by HillaryBriss »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #29
late2part wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why this trope about China ruling the world is crap. Generally speaking they are good at copying, reverse engineering, and cheap labor. The country's MO is to steal designs and process and implement better. When the west finally figures out how to stop letting China steal/copy - then the West will continue innovating, and China won't have anything to make.

Except the same empty arguments were made against Japan, and were levelled against the nations producing the imported cotton cloth that people were starting to buy in preference to long established Lancashire cotton mills. "Don't buy Japanese electronics or motorcycles, they only make poor cheap copies" would be commonly heard in the seventies and early eighties. They easily - and quickly - moved past that phase, as…

but Japan doesn't rule the world

Re: Huawei’s Yearslong Rise Is Littered with Accusations of Theft and Dubious Ethics

#50

Post by HillaryBriss »

Theodores wrote: post #24
mschuster91 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Going further back, in the world of automotive, when a special product comes out, e.g. the MINI in the UK, the first thing Ford does is to buy one and take it to pieces, cost the whole package and work out how it is done. Everyone does this, here's an article from 2006 detailing this: https://www.wired.com/2006/02/teardown/ The point is, this kind of behavior - taking a stock product and disassembling it to its pie…

Where I used to work we relied on our Chinese partners to do the hard bits you describe, e.g. mold making, and kept things like packaging design in the UK. Going further back when I used to work in the bicycle trade it was even worse, I thought that my mate doing the bicycle design would at least be able to use a CAD/CAM package, but he was working off printouts sent through from China. We didn't have the design skil…

> It was more of an approval process, but we were claiming credit for the design

a great point. this is a really, really important comment on this whole topic. i can't help but wonder if this phenomenon is widespread.

US companies don't fear a situation where Chinese design and engineering are equal or superior. this debate about IP theft is a smoke screen.

what US companies truly fear is Chinese companies that can market and sell directly to the US market because that's basically the only profitable thing US companies can do any more.

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