Please don’t theme our apps • Hacker News Board

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#171

Post by adamzochowski » Sat, May 25, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

gmueckl wrote: post #142

adamzochowski wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two solutions to this: 1) use offset colours, like specifying to move 10% in Hue off the theme colour. 2) specify all foreground + background colours and admit that this is special and won't conform to any user or distro theming

Number two is the enforced theme I was tslking about. Offset colors can be problematic for a number of reasons. The main one is that you don't know if the color that is generated that way has the right amount of contrast to each of the other colors it appears with and that the end result is something that is visually pleasing.

As an application developer I want for my users a consistent experience, irrelevant of OS or distribution. I understand that.

But, as a user I want for my experience consistent on my os, irrelevant of that different apps are written by different people on different setups. I want consistent icons, I want menus that follow same convention, I want to change text colours and sizes.

The biggest issue is that developers don't want to follow gnome checklist. Instead of that, they hardcode colours and behaviour. They go heavy into 'it works for me'. And then have audacity to complain that world doesn't bend to their will.

Here is a gnome checklist. I wish the open letter stated how their application follows the checklist and was broken by a distribution so that the checklist now includes fails.

https://developer.gnome.org/accessibility-devel-guide/stable...

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#172

Post by faissaloo » Sat, May 25, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #153

faissaloo wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to run what you want and modify what you want is different from design freedom.

Indeed. Keeping people from modifying their software affects only developers, keeping people from choosing a theme affects every user. The ability to use what software you want, however, isn't much different from the ability to use what theme you want. And ultimately, freedom is not specifically about running the software you want, or about modifying software, but about doing what you want .

The ability to use whatever theme you want has created a situation where Linux UI is in complete disarray. If you want a different UI you should obviously have that option, but there isn't a major UI system that takes the opposite approach, instead developer effort is being wasted on a feature that's always broken all the time and restricted to handful of working themes anyway.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#173

Post by anoncake » Sat, May 25, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

faissaloo wrote: post #172

anoncake wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Keeping people from modifying their software affects only developers, keeping people from choosing a theme affects every user. The ability to use what software you want, however, isn't much different from the ability to use what theme you want. And ultimately, freedom is not specifically about running the software you want, or about modifying software, but about doing what you want .

The ability to use whatever theme you want has created a situation where Linux UI is in complete disarray. If you want a different UI you should obviously have that option, but there isn't a major UI system that takes the opposite approach, instead developer effort is being wasted on a feature that's always broken all the time and restricted to handful of working themes anyway.

> there isn't a major UI system that takes the opposite approach

Good thing there is at least one then. Blindly cloning other "major UI systems", now that would be a waste of developer resources.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#174

Post by anoncake » Sat, May 25, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #163

ricardobeat wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also why next year will eternally be the ‘year of Linux on the desktop’, until desktops don’t even exist anymore.

To be clear, I’m responding to the affirmation that delivering app changes without any QA is acceptable. I’m not against open software or user customization, but this approach does not result in quality software. Distros should be working with application developers and not against them. Here you have a large group of Linux app developers undersigning a plea to stop breaking their software and all they get is scorn a…

> Here you have a large group of Linux app developers undersigning a plea to stop breaking their software and all they get is scorn and dismissal.

Their letter is titled "Please don't theme our apps", not "Please don't break our apps".

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#175

Post by megous » Sat, May 25, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

oarsinsync wrote: post #90

megous wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did, and you don't have these "customers" if distros don't ship your app. So you're most probably still net positive even if distros mod your app. If you don't like people modifying your software, don't publish it under permissive license.

Unfortunately, this is ultimately the problem with free software. Either you publish with zero support, and users end up using your software badly (via poor blog posts telling them what to do) or they don't use it at all; or you end up paying for your contribution to the world with even more of your time, supporting people who either don't realise that they've introduced the faults themselves (either directly through…

> Unfortunately, this is ultimately the problem with free software. Either you publish with zero support, and users end up using your software badly (via poor blog posts telling them what to do) or they don't use it at all;

You can have it on a website where users can talk to other users. And if you like, you can chime in. Say some code sharing platform. My experience is that people will help each other out usefully. You can even nudge them in this direction.

> How do you solve the social problem of a large majority who feel entitled to everything for free?

You don't. Why would you? You don't need to react to what you judge being an entitlement. You can misjudge though.

I've had reactions when contributing bug reports that I felt other person thought of me as being entitled, after I've spent considerable time identifying the root issue and suggesting a code change.

I've also thought of someone being entitled initially, when in the end the person ended up contributing useful service to other users of my program.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#176

Post by pushpop » Sat, May 25, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #119

jfk13 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Doesn't work" is far too broad a statement. An end user might choose a theme that works fine for the handful of particular applications they care about; yet that same theme might disrupt many other applications on the same distribution. End users can make that choice with regard to the extremely limited set of applications and use-cases that matter to them. A distribution has a far wider landscape to consider.

> "Doesn't work" is far too broad a statement. If you consider something that does not work reliably to work, you're right. I don't. A distribution has to consider more applications and use cases, but it also has more resources. Doing things at the distribution level is much more efficient than each user doing their own thing, that's why they exist.

Expecting distro maintainers to test every GUI feature on every piece of software on Linux is a tad unrealistic don’t you think?

You’d expect (hope) core applications would be tested but what about stuff that’s not in the official repos? Or stuff that is but had a new feature unbeknown to the distro maintainers?

On HN last week there was a GUI bug in a core OSX utility being discussed that slipped through Apples testing. If they managed to overlook something in their own OS, then a smaller team of people, likely working for free in their spare time (remember a lot of the distros that ship non-standard themes as a default are spin offs) is unlikely to test every GUI form and dialog that can be rendered o. Linux.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#177

Post by yellowapple » Sat, May 25, 2019, 8:45 PM UTC

gmueckl wrote: post #32

Color themes seem like a brilliant idea until hit the point where your custom control needs this one extra distinct highlight or background color to convey state. Then you're out of luck. You only have bad options left: opt out of system theming and enforce your own or hardcode a color (or put it into the settings dialog) and accept that it breaks with any non-default theme out there because no user will take time to…

If you're reliant on color to convey critical information, then your app is by default already much harder to use for colorblind users. Anyone who feels one needs these extra specific colors really ought to rethink the core design.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#178

Post by yellowapple » Sat, May 25, 2019, 8:51 PM UTC

adamzochowski wrote: post #171

gmueckl wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Number two is the enforced theme I was tslking about. Offset colors can be problematic for a number of reasons. The main one is that you don't know if the color that is generated that way has the right amount of contrast to each of the other colors it appears with and that the end result is something that is visually pleasing.

As an application developer I want for my users a consistent experience, irrelevant of OS or distribution. I understand that. But, as a user I want for my experience consistent on my os, irrelevant of that different apps are written by different people on different setups. I want consistent icons, I want menus that follow same convention, I want to change text colours and sizes. The biggest issue is that developers d…

I have a strong feeling that if custom themes are breaking apps, then those apps are almost certainly in violation of one or more of tables 2-4, 2-5, or 2-6.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#179

Post by yellowapple » Sat, May 25, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #70

code_duck wrote: post #30

It reminds me of how Reddit allows subs to put in their own stylesheets. Each sub can change the look, placement, and existence of just about every UI element. It makes for the most inconsistent interface I've ever seen for a website.

The redisign used for new.reddit.com doesn't give moderators as much control, much to the displeasure of many of us who have been on the platform for a long time. Although I dislike it when people significantly change UI controls.

I can't think of any CSS styles that are actually outright bad, though, unless it's intentional (like with /r/crappydesign or /r/ooer).

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#180

Post by rhinoceraptor » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #36

I couldn't disagree more. If the user wants the intended experience, they will not apply a different theme for your app. The whole reason a user has applied a different theme on your app is because they disagree with your choices and that's totally fine. What's next, asking Mozilla to take down user style sheets and extensions that restyle web apps? This article is antithetical to the whole cultural foundation that G…

They're specifically talking to distros in the letter, not end users. If you want to install your own custom theme, fine. But if you're a distro shipping a custom theme, when it breaks a 3rd party app, the app gets the blame, not the distro.