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Please don’t theme our apps

stopthemingmy.app

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Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#101

Post by dleslie »

avianlyric wrote: post #4
anoncake wrote: post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

Did we read the same letter? This letter was aimed at distributions and theme developers not end users. Hell there’s even a paragraph aim directly at end users. > If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. You’ve completely dismissed all of their concerns out of hand, in an entirely unhelpful and hostile manner. Why did you even bother writing a comment?

But it's not fine with them; it's unsupported and they're openly hostile towards at least some users (distros) doing it.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#102

Post by dragonwriter »

avianlyric wrote: post #24
brokenkebab wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent correctly notes that theming is a valid feature of the platform, and asking essentially for ignoring the feature because of brand issues sounds ridiculous. It maybe 'unhelpful', but sometimes we just express our opinions here, not running consultancy services. It's called commentary section for a reason.

I don’t take issue with people expressing opinions, or even pointing out that theming is a platform feature. But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers.

> But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers.

How is releasing software under a license and asking people not do things allowed by that license reasonable?

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#103

Post by code_duck »

Zak wrote: post #70
code_duck wrote: post #30

It reminds me of how Reddit allows subs to put in their own stylesheets. Each sub can change the look, placement, and existence of just about every UI element. It makes for the most inconsistent interface I've ever seen for a website.

The redisign used for new.reddit.com doesn't give moderators as much control, much to the displeasure of many of us who have been on the platform for a long time. Although I dislike it when people significantly change UI controls.

I always have custom CSS disabled for all subs. The designs are amusing, some are well done, and it's nice that people put effort into designs. However, as I was saying it makes for a terrible and confusing UI experience. Also some designs are intentionally jarring or annoying, and themes often omit elements.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#104

Post by dragonwriter »

threeseed wrote: post #6
anoncake wrote: post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

The article had pretty clear examples of where theming went wrong. Themes are imposing a real cost on developers who let's be honest are doing the Linux platform a massive favour by even bothering to write apps for it. I hope the audience of that article are a little more sympathetic than yourself.

> The article had pretty clear examples of where theming went wrong.

“It's possible to do X wrong” is insufficient to support “You should not do X”.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#105

Post by anoncake »

pushpop wrote: post #99
anoncake wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says distributions should not theme because it doesn't work. If theming doesn't work when a distribution does it, it doesn't work either when an end user does it for accessibility.

Actually no that’s not what it said. Or at least not in the way that your terse paraphrased summary suggests. What it actually does is list a number of reasons why distro themes are bad (in their opinion). Some of those reasons amarettos equally true for end users theming and some of those reasons are not. The letter also does say that end users are welcome to theme themselves but they should do so under the knowledg…

One of the reasons they cite for distro theming being bad is that it that it makes applications unusable. I think that can be validly summarized as "theming doesn't work".

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#106

Post by rangerpolitic »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #93
rangerpolitic wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not addressing this to end users. There is a notice at the top of the article in a bright yellow box. > Please read the letter all the way to the end. This is aimed at distributions breaking apps by default, not tinkerers playing with their own setup.

> Please read the letter all the way to the end I did thanks. "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us ... However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory." Unsupported territory for choosing a distro that looks unusual, or applies theming, or for changing my own damn desktop icon?

It's unreasonable to expect a developer to support third-party modifications to the software--especially when that software and support are free.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#107

Post by pushpop »

anoncake wrote: post #105
pushpop wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no that’s not what it said. Or at least not in the way that your terse paraphrased summary suggests. What it actually does is list a number of reasons why distro themes are bad (in their opinion). Some of those reasons amarettos equally true for end users theming and some of those reasons are not. The letter also does say that end users are welcome to theme themselves but they should do so under the knowledg…

One of the reasons they cite for distro theming being bad is that it that it makes applications unusable. I think that can be validly summarized as "theming doesn't work".

“Can” is not the same as “does”.

Theming literally can break the UI in unexpected ways, however if often doesn’t. But if one manages the theme themselves then they are able to manage those edge cases themselves. If a distro does it then they can’t guarantee the end users are even aware that the unexpected UI is the fault of the distro.

That point was clearly laid out in the letter too. If people had bothered to read it.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#108

Post by sjwright »

the_other wrote: post #42
anoncake wrote: post #2

> GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable. Bugs are bad, yes. > Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended. That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for. > Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand. Good. My computer is not your billboard. Co…

If you develop for a system which permits theming, you have to include that use case in your design. You can’t complain about users making use of system features when you develop for that system.

Who are you to tell the app developer what they're require to support? It's open source. They don't owe you anything. They don't have to make their software work on Thursdays or work in Canada, let alone survive contact with a hundred weird and unpredictable themes.

Re: Please don’t theme our apps

#109

Post by anoncake »

rangerpolitic wrote: post #106
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please read the letter all the way to the end I did thanks. "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us ... However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory." Unsupported territory for choosing a distro that looks unusual, or applies theming, or for changing my own damn desktop icon?

It's unreasonable to expect a developer to support third-party modifications to the software--especially when that software and support are free.

Good thing theming doesn't modify the software. It's reasonable to expect a developer to support software being used in an environment that does not 100% match what they use (to the extent it's reasonable to expect support in the first place).
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