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Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

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Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#81
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's difficult to distinguish between executive leadership trying to efficiently return money to shareholders vs propping up the share price so that they see a personal benefit via their own shares increasing or via contractual bonuses. Given that there's an incentive to spend other peoples money(shareholders who bought shares) to increase their own(via bonuses, salary, or granted shares) it's fairly safe to…

> via their own shares increasing This isn't any more true for the executives than any other shareholder, and doesn't really work that way anyway. Buybacks don't increase the value of shares unless the company was undervalued or making less efficient use of the cash than their other capital, and in that case they're smart to have done it. > via contractual bonuses The way to solve this is to do accounting for buyback…

>Buybacks don't increase the value of shares

There was a price at the current supply and demand. Buybacks increase the demand which increases the price. The buybacks may be a bad idea and lower the demand from the marketplace but that information takes more time to disseminate and is harder to actually determine where as someone buying up millions of shares is a piece of information that is immediatley known.

>You obviously don't want to have executives choosing whether to do these things based on that, so don't.

That is what people who have problems with buybacks but not dividends, would like to see happen

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#82
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's difficult to distinguish between executive leadership trying to efficiently return money to shareholders vs propping up the share price so that they see a personal benefit via their own shares increasing or via contractual bonuses. Given that there's an incentive to spend other peoples money(shareholders who bought shares) to increase their own(via bonuses, salary, or granted shares) it's fairly safe to…

“Spend other people’s money” is a really weird way to put it IMO - people chose to invest in the company because they thought it was a good investment. Investors would rather have the stock than the cash they paid for it. When the company does a buyback, the shareholder investment in the company becomes more concentrated. Each share represents more stock and less cash, making it possible to construct a higher-equity…

I'd agree that it would be a weird way to put it if both sides had the same level of information. In this case execs okaying the buybacks have access to more accurate and immediate information than the potential investors and they have a way to funnel that investor money into their own pockets. In this situation I stand by characterization of this

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#83
post #68
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company becomes equally less valuable after a buyback. Consider a company with value of $1000, with 100 shares outstanding. Each share is $10. Buying back 10 shares, the company spent $100, so the company is now worth $900 and has 90 shares outstanding. Each share is still $10. This is the basic model that shows share price should be unaffected by buybacks, but there are other effects. The buyback could signal to…

I think you may be confusing market cap with share price. Market cap does not generally increase with buybacks, only share price does.

[deleted]

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#84
post #28
post #3

If you need evidence that our economy is at least partly broken, this is it right here. Companies that are swimming in cash reserves are using their money to artificially boost shareholder returns instead of actually investing in things like capital expenditures, R&D, or higher salaries. On one hand (as the article points out), this is driven by cheap credit, but on the other hand I think the question needs to be ask…

Giving money back to shareholders sounds a lot like giving money to venture capitalists to me.

Could you explain? They sound almost totally different to me, with "giving money" being the only point in common.

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#85
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of a company's earnings legally belongs to the shareholders That's simply not true. Next you'll be telling us it's illegal for a company to do anything that isn't about maximising shareholder value.

It is true. The company is owned by its shareholders, collectively.

Even if they did "own" the company (which they don't, unless you choose to define the terms identically - "owner" and "shareholder" are not synonymous), just owning a company doesn't mean all the earnings belong to you.

Here's some legal people on the subject; https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_...

Key phrases include "shareholders do not own business corporations, nor do they own the assets of the corporate entities".

Now, there are other opinions, but the very fact that this is an ongoing discussion suggests strongly that it is not as cut and dried as you claim.

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#86
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of a company's earnings legally belongs to the shareholders That's simply not true. Next you'll be telling us it's illegal for a company to do anything that isn't about maximising shareholder value.

Who do they belong to if not to the owner of the company?

"Shareholders" and "owner" are not synonymous terms. Shareholders don't "own" the company; they hold shares in the company.

https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_...

"First, shareholders do not own business corporations, nor do they own the assets of the corporate entities... Shareholders own shares."

Somewhere back in the eighties, it became popular in the business community to say that the purpose of a company is to maximise shareholder value. That opinion and others like it have now so saturated society that people take it as received truth, but it's not. Likewise the idea that shareholders are owners.

Now, as in many things, laws do change over time and if enough people continue to believe this hard enough for long enough, there will eventually be enough case law that it ultimately become true. One day, it might be true, and law. That day has not yet come.

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of a company's earnings legally belongs to the shareholders That's simply not true. Next you'll be telling us it's illegal for a company to do anything that isn't about maximising shareholder value.

Wasn't there that Michigan Supreme Court decision that states that was precisely the purpose of a company -- to maximize shareholder value?

You're thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. , which was literally a century ago.

If you scroll down to "Significance", you can read for yourself that it's by no means universally accepted ("that this interpretation has not represented the law in most states for some time").

Let's come forwards a little; as the U.S. Supreme Court recently stated, "modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so."

Where this is basically going is that the common belief - that there is some clear, absolute law that totally says the shareholders are the owners and the company is all about giving money to them - simply isn't true.

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#88
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true. The company is owned by its shareholders, collectively.

Even if they did "own" the company (which they don't, unless you choose to define the terms identically - "owner" and "shareholder" are not synonymous), just owning a company doesn't mean all the earnings belong to you. Here's some legal people on the subject; https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_... Key phrases include "shareholders do not own business corporations, nor do they own the assets…

[deleted]

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#89
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do they belong to if not to the owner of the company?

"Shareholders" and "owner" are not synonymous terms. Shareholders don't "own" the company; they hold shares in the company. https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_... "First, shareholders do not own business corporations, nor do they own the assets of the corporate entities... Shareholders own shares." Somewhere back in the eighties, it became popular in the business community to say that the pur…

You are right at least in part, strictly speaking the owner(s) of a company do(es) own its assets only in an indirect way.

But I don't get the "shareholders do not own business corporations" bit. Would a sole owner "own" a business corporation? Do real estate owners "own" real estate or do they own "bundles of intangible rights"?

Re: Dividends and Buybacks Now Larger Than Total Reported Earnings for Entire S&P500

#90
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Shareholders" and "owner" are not synonymous terms. Shareholders don't "own" the company; they hold shares in the company. https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_... "First, shareholders do not own business corporations, nor do they own the assets of the corporate entities... Shareholders own shares." Somewhere back in the eighties, it became popular in the business community to say that the pur…

You are right at least in part, strictly speaking the owner(s) of a company do(es) own its assets only in an indirect way. But I don't get the "shareholders do not own business corporations" bit. Would a sole owner "own" a business corporation? Do real estate owners "own" real estate or do they own "bundles of intangible rights"?

But I don't get the "shareholders do not own business corporations" bit.

Well, why would they? At risk of horrifically simplifying things, I have a company, I decide I want some more money. I sell you the right to vote in some things that concern the company, and I sell you a share of any dividends that get paid out in the future. That's what you get. Do you now own the company? Do you own the company assets? I didn't sell that to you. I sold you the right to vote in some company meetings and decision making processes, and I sold you a piece of any future dividends that get paid out to you and others like you. Doesn't sound like "owning" something to me.

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