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Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

bloomberg.com

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Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#261

Post by sadris »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #184
barry-cotter wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has been under replacement fertility for less than 100 years, under four generations. On an evolutionary timescale this is nothing. It’s like dropping 100 thoroughbreds on a small island. Come back in 20 years and if there are still horses they’ll be maybe a hand shorter. Give it a hundred years and they’ll be ponies. If Mormons have higher fertility than non-Mormons then they’ll grow as a share of the populat…

> The US has been under replacement fertility for less than 100 years, under four generations. On an evolutionary timescale this is nothing. So? Human society and culture can change absurdly fast. If the evolutionary impulse to reproduce was that strong, you wouldn't be seeing places like Singapore with comically low birth rates. What evolution compels us to do is have sex. We've just disconnected that from reproduct…

> What evolution compels us to do is have sex. We've just disconnected that from reproduction.

It compels is to do everything we do in life. There isn't a single trait ever measured in which the heritability was zero.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#262

Post by sadris »

rectang wrote: post #7
benjohnson wrote: post #2

Im conflicted about this - I enjoy the multicultural aspects of my own town (Seattle) but I also sympathise with this idea of having a home culture.

Is it really multiculturalism, in either Seattle or Japan? In multiculturalism, immigrants form enclaves that are durable and do not readily assimilate. That's not generally what happens in the US -- even second generation immigrant children speak English as a first language and are largely Americanized.

47% of California households do not speak English at home.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#263

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #257
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give it time. How many Polish only speakers do you see in Hamtramck in spite of the large Polish-descended population there?

Do you think that has anything to do with the pols in this case and Mexicans in the GP example - that they are both Christian cultures assimilating into other Christian cultures?

You're kidding, right? The Polish, by and large, are staunch Roman Catholics whereas the United States is primarily various Protestant denominations. There's a long, long history of enmity and violence between those branches of Christianity.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#264

Post by spookybones »

omot wrote: post #178

As a naturalized US citizen, I had to give up my Japanese citizenship. It was a hard decision to make since half my immediate family is still Japanese and I still love Japan. In part I never forgave Japan that they forced me to make this decision. Which is why I'm excited for a more ethnically diverse Japan. As a resident of the Bay Area I only see diversity as an advantage of introducing new thoughts and creativity.…

Serious question: Hasn’t the the Bay Area become the antithesis of diversity and killed the local culture? I don’t just mean black culture, but also the beat culture, the Italian neighborhoods, etc.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#265

Post by distantaidenn »

omot wrote: post #196
random42_ wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually had to give up on your Japanese citizenship? I know that when taking the oath you reject all other citizenship you may have but AFAIK this is not enforced, meaning you don't have to go to your embassy and formally require to give up on your citizenship. Really curious to know more about this.

I actually got work in Japan. My passport was expired, and I went to renew it. They always ask how you're staying in the states and to show evidence. At that point my green card was expired and I only had naturalization to show. At that point I had to give up my Japanese citizenship, in order to get a visa. I don't remember if that was the exact reason but I was able to get away with dual for a while. Maybe if I trie…

Ouch... Hopefully Japan will change this at some point, with the increase in international marriages. I've been living here long enough and paid enough taxes to consider becoming a citizen. But I wouldn't trade it for my US citizenship.

Interesting aside. One of my Taiwanese friends got his Japanese citizenship, and thus renounced his Taiwanese.

But plot twist: Taiwan allows (what's akin to) temporary renouncment. Now he's a dual citizen.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#266

Post by jlawson »

dang wrote: post #97
jlawson wrote: post #6

So sad. Another ancient unique culture to be blended and homogenized into the global mass of undifferentiated Starbucks society. At least the megacorporations will get the cheap labor and undifferentiated consumers they want.

Taking HN threads into nationalistic and racial and ideological flamewar is not allowed on HN, and we ban accounts that do it. If you have something thoughtful and substantive to say, that's a different story, but please keep the cheap battle rhetoric someplace else. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I said absolutely nothing about race. I resent the implication that my opinion is somehow racially-based.

Nor have I done anything related to a "flame war". I insulted no individuals and I attacked no groups.

Nor has a "flame war" arisen from my comment. There have been many responses and there's no "flame war", just reasonable disagreement.

I simply expressed a sense of loss at the potential dissolution of a culture. My concerns are central to the whole topic; they are shared by most Japanese people. This is not some fringe view, it is at the center of the entire issue and is entirely mainstream.

Your accusations don't connect. This rebuke makes it seem like you're using biased enforcement of facially-neutral rules to advantage one side of the discussion, and suppress mainstream views on the other side. What you're doing here is harmful to the health of the HN community, and wider discourse. Please reconsider how you've approached this issue, and be more circumspect before making such accusations. Ask yourself - How would someone with the opposite mainstream view, or a Japanese person, consider the comment? How would I moderate this if I agreed with the underlying worldview and values?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#267

Post by burfog »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #184
barry-cotter wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has been under replacement fertility for less than 100 years, under four generations. On an evolutionary timescale this is nothing. It’s like dropping 100 thoroughbreds on a small island. Come back in 20 years and if there are still horses they’ll be maybe a hand shorter. Give it a hundred years and they’ll be ponies. If Mormons have higher fertility than non-Mormons then they’ll grow as a share of the populat…

> The US has been under replacement fertility for less than 100 years, under four generations. On an evolutionary timescale this is nothing. So? Human society and culture can change absurdly fast. If the evolutionary impulse to reproduce was that strong, you wouldn't be seeing places like Singapore with comically low birth rates. What evolution compels us to do is have sex. We've just disconnected that from reproduct…

The disconnect is a temporary issue. Evolution will quickly replace the desire for sex with a desire for children, or will give us traits that make successful use of birth control unlikely. There is no stronger selection pressure.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#268

Post by rectang »

sadris wrote: post #262
rectang wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really multiculturalism, in either Seattle or Japan? In multiculturalism, immigrants form enclaves that are durable and do not readily assimilate. That's not generally what happens in the US -- even second generation immigrant children speak English as a first language and are largely Americanized.

47% of California households do not speak English at home.

So? There are still huge benefits to learning English, and so nearly all immigrants do -- within one generation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/05/21/milli...

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#269

Post by jlawson »

krapp wrote: post #251
blub wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Trump, Brexit and the turmoil in Europe we're way past just "opposing" multiculturalism. Multiculturalism seems to be imploding. I was and am not fascinated by Japan, and to be honest I didn't always enjoy my visit there. It was frustrating to feel so... foreign. I complained about them not speaking English and was annoyed that I couldn't even read a simple sign. And yet, looking back I cherish that time and a f…

And yet Japan has been exchanging cultural and genetic material with the rest of East Asia for thousands of years, and the West for centuries. Even during the Sakoku period, they were trading with the world through the port at Dejima. Pretending it's an island untouched by and uninterested in foreign culture is changing it to fit one's imagination. Someone may well have "bent to your will" a bit had you put in a bit…

Noone thinks it's an island untouched by the world.

But a small degree of foreign influence over thousands of years, carried out by mutual trade of objects and information, just isn't the same as the kind of mass immigration seen in the West, where the whole population becomes a minority in less than a lifetime. Such a thing has never happened in Japan in a thousand years; not even close. (It did happen before that, and the people who were there originally are not doing too well.)

There's a fundamental difference between exchanging products and ideas, and mass migration of people. Stop trying to pretend that they're the same.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#270

Post by world32 »

hh3k0 wrote: post #111
Complexicate wrote: post #99

The Bloomberg article exacerbates the bigotry many Japanese have against their own fellow citizens. In the caption of the first picture: "She’s not all Japanese, but she was Miss Universe Japan 2015." Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japan…

> Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders. Just because she qualifies as Japanese from your point of view doesn't mean that the Japanese have to view it like you. White savior comple…

So do you think it's OK for me as a white Englishman to consider a black person born in England to not truly be English?

What about for a German to consider Jews to be less German? Is that ok too? Its just their "culture" right?

Edit: I suggest you watch this exchange between a black Englishman Gary Young and the white supremacist Richard Spencer. It's nasty stuff right? Him telling the guy "you're not a real Englishman". Yet you have japanese friends who say exactly the same thing about non ethnically Japanese people and you think that's fine? How do you square that circle?

https://youtu.be/puJ-arJgkZU

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