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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

bloomberg.com

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#401

Post by magduf »

oreo83 wrote: post #400
magduf wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have to do crazy workarounds to make a design stay relevant and usable in modern times, then it is by definition a bad design.

The crazy workarounds are maybe bad designs, but an airframe design that's still in demand after 50 years and been built 10,000+ times isn't a crappy design. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone familiar with aviation agree that the 737 is a poorly designed airframe...

It's only in demand because of inertia. This is like claiming that Windows is great for no other reason than because so many people use it, or that the US government is a great idea just because it hasn't collapsed yet.

If you think it's so great, then why don't you explain why you can't put today's large high-bypass turbofan engines on it in the normal position without them hitting the runway? How exactly is that a "great design"? It may have been a great design in 1967, but it isn't now, just like a 1967 Mustang chassis may have been OK then, but is totally inadequate now.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#402

Post by oreo83 »

magduf wrote: post #401
oreo83 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crazy workarounds are maybe bad designs, but an airframe design that's still in demand after 50 years and been built 10,000+ times isn't a crappy design. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone familiar with aviation agree that the 737 is a poorly designed airframe...

It's only in demand because of inertia. This is like claiming that Windows is great for no other reason than because so many people use it, or that the US government is a great idea just because it hasn't collapsed yet. If you think it's so great, then why don't you explain why you can't put today's large high-bypass turbofan engines on it in the normal position without them hitting the runway? How exactly is that a…

I think you misunderstanding what an 'airframe' is...

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#403

Post by dragonwriter »

pfortuny wrote: post #390
dragonwriter wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aim of a corporation is to serve the common interests of it's shareholders (you might add “as understood by it's management”); most commonly, with a widely held corporation, those common interests are limited to making money.

No: I understand it as "by its definition as corporation" (i.e. Boeing might make a lot more money if they just turned into a collection of car factories, for example -just for example-) but then it would not be Boeing.

Corporations can and do pivot their lines of business like that, and retain their identity. (Though at times they also find it useful to rebrand with a pivot.)

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#404

Post by magduf »

oreo83 wrote: post #402
magduf wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only in demand because of inertia. This is like claiming that Windows is great for no other reason than because so many people use it, or that the US government is a great idea just because it hasn't collapsed yet. If you think it's so great, then why don't you explain why you can't put today's large high-bypass turbofan engines on it in the normal position without them hitting the runway? How exactly is that a…

I think you misunderstanding what an 'airframe' is...

No, I think you are. The 737's airframe includes landing gear designed for using ladders instead of jetways, and wings that are thus too low to the ground, which is why they placed the new nacelles the way they did, causing this problem in the first place.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#405

Post by bshacklett »

spockz wrote: post #252
yodsanklai wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's clear that to Boeing, their numbers are more important than lives. Isn't it the case by design for any corporation?

The problem is in the short term numbers vs long term. In the short term taking shortcuts was beneficial because it preventing recertifications etc, but in the long term the grounding and reputation damage cost more. Moreover, everyone has to be retrained now anyway.

This is one of the biggest problems I've seen amongst corporate culture throughout my career. There was a time when companies were run with the intention of building a legacy. Now, it's all about the next quarter's earnings report, if not the next month's.

It's a shameful state of affairs, but the entire system is set up to reward this kind of behavior now.

I'd love to hear someone who understands the problem explain how we got here.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#406

Post by spockz »

bshacklett wrote: post #405
spockz wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is in the short term numbers vs long term. In the short term taking shortcuts was beneficial because it preventing recertifications etc, but in the long term the grounding and reputation damage cost more. Moreover, everyone has to be retrained now anyway.

This is one of the biggest problems I've seen amongst corporate culture throughout my career. There was a time when companies were run with the intention of building a legacy. Now, it's all about the next quarter's earnings report, if not the next month's. It's a shameful state of affairs, but the entire system is set up to reward this kind of behavior now. I'd love to hear someone who understands the problem explain…

I see this trend as well. Maybe it is about growing up and seeing past things now.

I would be more interested in how we can move to more long term thinking. (Long term thinking includes the short term because otherwise the organisation might not survive. But nowadays it appears to solely be about the short term.)

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#407

Post by daddylonglegs »

alexis_fr wrote: post #369
rossdavidh wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, all you need is for the CEO and perhaps the board of directors to lose their jobs. Sure, they'd get golden parachutes and it wouldn't seem sufficient, but people in positions of power don't like losing their position. If you did that, it would be sufficient to make the next CEO (and board) think twice about doing something similar. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be happening.

The way Europe handled Volkswagen is... nothing, but Vw directors are being arrested one by one when they transit through US jurisdictions, and jailed. Perhaps we’ll ser the same: Europe arresting and trialling Boeing officials one by one as they ser foot in Europe. Perhaps there are already negociations on immunity for Vw against immunity for Boeing.

Martin Winterkorn (CEO of VW at the time) was charged by prosecutors in Germany in April.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-wint...

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