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Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

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Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#131

Post by mattdm »

So, from a Fedora Project point of view, I'm not really sure how we could have done this better. This change was properly announced and publicized as https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/MergeDstatAndPerforma... and approved by FESCo (the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee) in August 2018 (https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1956).

The change page says "The original dstat utility has reached end of life - it does not support python3 and there are no plans to update it." This may not have been right after all, but I don't think it's in bad faith. Perhaps FESCo should have dug a little deeper, but there aren't really any particular red flags indicating that that's warranted.

I'm open to suggestions, though -- we do want to continually improve our processes, and we do want to work well with upstreams. And, y'know, be better to long-time Fedora ecosystem friends.

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#132

Post by op00to »

bauerd wrote: post #81
appstateguy wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

meh. ultimately this is OSS. the maintainer was negligent. if you're not a good OSS maintainer, you don't deserve to maintain control. it's not reasonable to be indefinitely patient when the original author shows no initiative to maintain their project

They didn't even try to contact the author?!

Why would you try to contact someone who's abandoned the project?

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#133

Post by mattdm »

ungamed wrote: post #85
tedivm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently reusing the name without talking to the author was a conscious decision on their behalf- https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1614277#c7

Are all of those people commenting Red Hat employees ?

Well, I am at least. I care about when things like this happen, including figuring out how we can do better.

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#134

Post by dagwieers »

mattdm wrote: post #131

So, from a Fedora Project point of view, I'm not really sure how we could have done this better. This change was properly announced and publicized as https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/MergeDstatAndPerforma... and approved by FESCo (the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee) in August 2018 ( https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1956 ). The change page says "The original dstat utility has reached end of life - it does no…

Well, I had to find out this was planned and acted on after the decision was made and the alternative was written without any regards of the original project.

And that is fine if it would stay pcp-dstat as-is.

The most upsetting to me is that Dstat is no longer a python tool you can drop on a JeOS, Synology NAS or a WRT router to get it to work, you now have to install PCP and all its dependencies to make it work, which goes against the original design goals. (i.e. we used to support Python 1.5 for a long time to accommodate RHEL2.1 during its life-cycle)

Also, by taking the Dstat code, removing the plugin mechanism and replacing it with a PCP backend, writing a python plugin for Dstat is no longer possible. This is promoted as being a feature as "your plugin is now a config file" which is a bit disingenuous as you have to write a PCP backend which is a lot harder.

And it is not even a drop-in replacement, it only implements the built-in counters, not the full set of plugins (i.e. --top plugins are missing). So the argument that it needs to work as-is for existing customers does not hold true either.

By taking that name (with the Red Hat clout) there is no chance of anyone taking over maintenance without having to deal with 2 products using the same name, which I guess is forcing your wish on other distributions too.

Wrt. the change was properly announced. I bet the checklist was properly checked. Or to quote Douglas Adams:

“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#135

Post by mindcrime »

klohto wrote: post #59
mindcrime wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't Redhat's model. Well... it hasn't been so far . But this isn't the old Red Hat anymore. This is IBM Hat. And for all the talk about keeping Red Hat mostly independent or whatever, I think we all know that's bullshit. Acquiring companies always give that little dog and pony show, and it never holds up in the long-term. There's no way that IBM culture won't wind up infecting Red Hat. Now whether that's a goo…

Every single thread someone has to bring it up. The acquisition isn’t even closed yet and suddenly every decision done is mysteriously pushed by IBM. There is more than enough people who have their own minds. That is the RH culture, if this freedom is touched they will just quit. IBM won’t affect RH in any way, Jim is not an idiot because he knows this would destroy RH and IBM are also not idiots because it would des…

The acquisition isn’t even closed yet and suddenly every decision done is mysteriously pushed by IBM.

I am not saying that "every decision is mysteriously pushed by IBM." I'm saying that IBM culture will - over the long run - infect Red Hat. To pretend otherwise is, IMO, pretty naive. Over the decades, company after company after company has been acquired, and nearly every time the acquiring company makes the same promises about maintaining autonomy for the acquired company. And sometimes it holds up for a few months, or even a few years. But every single time, at least that I can recall, in the long run the acquired company eventually gets totally absorbed by the parent and starts to take on their characteristics. I haven't heard any cogent argument yet to justify believing that this time will be different.

IBM are also not idiots because it would destroy they purchase.

Like the way IBM managed to avoid destroying Lotus, Informix, Tivoli, Rational, Sequent, Truven, Explorys, Phytel, etc.?

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#136

Post by mattdm »

dagwieers wrote: post #134
mattdm wrote: post #131

So, from a Fedora Project point of view, I'm not really sure how we could have done this better. This change was properly announced and publicized as https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/MergeDstatAndPerforma... and approved by FESCo (the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee) in August 2018 ( https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1956 ). The change page says "The original dstat utility has reached end of life - it does no…

Well, I had to find out this was planned and acted on after the decision was made and the alternative was written without any regards of the original project. And that is fine if it would stay pcp-dstat as-is. The most upsetting to me is that Dstat is no longer a python tool you can drop on a JeOS, Synology NAS or a WRT router to get it to work, you now have to install PCP and all its dependencies to make it work, wh…

Well, we do try to do better than the Cottington planning department. Like all changes, it was posted to devel-announce (https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce...) to get more visibility than just a devel-list post (or a random wiki page).

In retrospect, it would have been nice for the devs working on this to contact you directly and explicitly about the proposed change. I'm sorry that didn't happen.

But here we are now -- at this point, what outcome would you like?

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#137

Post by dagwieers »

op00to wrote: post #132
bauerd wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't even try to contact the author?!

Why would you try to contact someone who's abandoned the project?

Maybe because it is the nice thing to do?

And it's not like I have disappeared from the face of the earth. I am quite active on GitHub.

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#138

Post by dagwieers »

pas wrote: post #119
thisgoodlife wrote: post #3

I have been using dstat for years. It's a great tool. But why kill the project just because some company has a project with the same name? There is more than one distro, you know

The project was already dead. But now the maintainer[s] found time to complain about how evil RH simply opted to provide a py3 compatible replacement and provide it as dstat.

That's not exactly what happened, but great to see you are making improvements in your fiction-writing skills :-) Keep it up !

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#139

Post by dagwieers »

mattdm wrote: post #136
dagwieers wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I had to find out this was planned and acted on after the decision was made and the alternative was written without any regards of the original project. And that is fine if it would stay pcp-dstat as-is. The most upsetting to me is that Dstat is no longer a python tool you can drop on a JeOS, Synology NAS or a WRT router to get it to work, you now have to install PCP and all its dependencies to make it work, wh…

Well, we do try to do better than the Cottington planning department. Like all changes, it was posted to devel-announce ( https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce... ) to get more visibility than just a devel-list post (or a random wiki page). In retrospect, it would have been nice for the devs working on this to contact you directly and explicitly about the proposed change. I'm sorry that didn't…

It has played out as it did, that's why I closed the project.

I don't have any wishes. Just a bad aftertaste but that will go. I don't like to dwell in the past, regardless of the fact I have to defend myself in this forum to total strangers who seem to know better :-)

And that will pass as well. We'll see...

Re: Dstat project ended due to RedHat replacing it with its own dstat tool

#140

Post by mattdm »

dagwieers wrote: post #139
mattdm wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we do try to do better than the Cottington planning department. Like all changes, it was posted to devel-announce ( https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce... ) to get more visibility than just a devel-list post (or a random wiki page). In retrospect, it would have been nice for the devs working on this to contact you directly and explicitly about the proposed change. I'm sorry that didn't…

It has played out as it did, that's why I closed the project. I don't have any wishes. Just a bad aftertaste but that will go. I don't like to dwell in the past, regardless of the fact I have to defend myself in this forum to total strangers who seem to know better :-) And that will pass as well. We'll see...

Okay. Again, I'm sorry it came out like this. I would like us to do better.
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