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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#361

Post by munk-a »

mcny wrote: post #347
munk-a wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know how I'd do that - even if I tried to book a flight that specifically didn't use a boeing plane in the US domestic airlines will swap out planes for different ones all the time due to maintenance requirements. Choosing to use a competing product as an end consumer would require an immense sacrifice (like refusing to board your flight if it happened to be a Boeing, which you might get a rebate for?).…

If airlines have to pay more in insurance premiums or they have to pay millions of US dollars a pop for each dead passenger, they'll demand a safer plane.

To my knowledge neither of these conditions have occurred in response to the 737 Max technical issues. Corporations listen to customer complaints that are backed up by losing revenue - as was shown with the issue where a passenger was beaten up on a United flight, people are extremely price sensitive when it comes to flying - there is math that can make the 737 unprofitable, but I think it's unlikely that the math will turn in that direction, it would take an extremely negative PR issue to start this.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#362

Post by acqq »

FabHK wrote: post #320
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially since this isn’t the first time Boeing’s malfeasance killed people. What are you referring to here?

Might be referring to the rudder problem on the 737 in the 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

From Wikipedia:

"A total of 157 people aboard the two aircraft were killed."

"The National Transportation Safety Board ultimately determined that the accidents and incidents were the result of a design flaw that could result in an uncommanded movement of the aircraft's rudder."

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#363

Post by JudgeWapner »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #139
retSava wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MCAS will likely be fixed in a way that makes it reliable and dependable. Boeing wouldn't dare anything else since there are a lot of eyes on them and how they handle this now. What worries me is not the MCAS (now), but what else might be lurking under the surface that Boeing pretends is not a problem. I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-…

I don't feel confident that Boeing would accept the cost of grounding the fleet the next time something serious-but-not-yet-crashing shows up. They wouldn't even ground the fleet if death and destruction occurs. Like they didn't do after the Lion Air crash. Even after the Ethiopian plane they tried hell and high water, including a call to the president, to not have the plane grounded. It's clear that to Boeing, their…

> still smearing everybody else but themselves

a news alert popped up on my phone today about "bird strike possible in ethiopian crash...". I didn't bother reading it, but I thought seriously ? What media outlet did they pay off to even think of trying to divert attention and who in their right mind would think propaganda like that would be effective ?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#364

Post by mikeash »

freehunter wrote: post #317
nocturnial wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote victim and not dead passenger as you falsely implied. The contracts are with the surviving familing members. If you don't consider them as victims then give me another word for it. edit: If you downvote me at least give me a chance to defend why I chose the word victim. The reply gizmo is there.

The definition of victim implies the same as "dead passenger". The families of dead passengers would be stretching the definition, at the very least it's not the most obvious definition in this case >a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action "Victim's family" is how people would normally refer to them.

Losing a family member definitely qualifies as harm.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#365

Post by rootusrootus »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #327
rootusrootus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History also tells us that after the rudder issues, the 737 went on to become the safest airplane in history.

Not the safest. One of the Airbuses (A350?) has never had a fatality.

That is not a very exclusive club.

Airbus A380, Boeing 717, Boeing 787, Bombardier CRJ700, Airbus A340. And I'm pretty sure there are more.

Let's put it in perspective. Boeing has built over ten thousand 737s. Airbus has produced just 265 A350s.

Heck, at the moment Boeing crossed 265 737-MAX-8s in production, they might very well have had zero fatalities as well :)

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#366

Post by Causality1 »

oreo83 wrote: post #360
Causality1 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MCAS relied on a single AoA sensor for a plane that holds 300 people. Military cargo planes a tenth the capacity have three of them. Boeing's design philosophy is terrifying.

This is completely false.

Two are physically present but MCAS only takes input from one of them.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/inves...

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#367

Post by rootusrootus »

slenk wrote: post #313
rootusrootus wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we on HN are being consistent, we should appreciate an airline that offers frequent over-the-air software updates. We love it when Tesla does it...

We do? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19443925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17991905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16808171

Exceptions proving the rule? It gets a lot more love than hate.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#368

Post by rootusrootus »

actuator wrote: post #316
rootusrootus wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just over a year ago Airbus paid a fine to Germany for bribery. So it appears they have their own corruption problems.

Wasn't that for sales though?

I'm not sure I'm willing to narrow the goalposts that much just so I can absolve Airbus from misbehaving. And that's just the most recent example easy to find with a quick Google search.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#369

Post by alexis_fr »

rossdavidh wrote: post #173
nocturnial wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how are they going to be held accountable? They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company. Maybe not everyone signed, but then it's about how much they can pay their lawyers.

Really, all you need is for the CEO and perhaps the board of directors to lose their jobs. Sure, they'd get golden parachutes and it wouldn't seem sufficient, but people in positions of power don't like losing their position. If you did that, it would be sufficient to make the next CEO (and board) think twice about doing something similar. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be happening.

The way Europe handled Volkswagen is... nothing, but Vw directors are being arrested one by one when they transit through US jurisdictions, and jailed.

Perhaps we’ll ser the same: Europe arresting and trialling Boeing officials one by one as they ser foot in Europe. Perhaps there are already negociations on immunity for Vw against immunity for Boeing.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#370

Post by hn23 »

alexis_fr wrote: post #369
rossdavidh wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, all you need is for the CEO and perhaps the board of directors to lose their jobs. Sure, they'd get golden parachutes and it wouldn't seem sufficient, but people in positions of power don't like losing their position. If you did that, it would be sufficient to make the next CEO (and board) think twice about doing something similar. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be happening.

The way Europe handled Volkswagen is... nothing, but Vw directors are being arrested one by one when they transit through US jurisdictions, and jailed. Perhaps we’ll ser the same: Europe arresting and trialling Boeing officials one by one as they ser foot in Europe. Perhaps there are already negociations on immunity for Vw against immunity for Boeing.

But the us is the empire. So they still make the rules...
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