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Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

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Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#91

Post by alkonaut »

Angostura wrote: post #33
yaseer wrote: post #3

I'm curious to see how passengers will react to flying via 737-max. Will ticket prices be lowered to reflect the inevitable wariness of flying in one again?

I'm not sure I've ever been told what type of plane I'm flying in when I book - are you typically told?

Depends on when you book and what fleet they have. The exact plane (individual) isn't assigned to your flight by the scheduling software at the booking date, if you book months in advance. It's a guess in that case, and it can change up to hours before the flight. So there is nothing that guarantees that the model specified on your booking will actually be used.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#92

Post by wongarsu »

nocturnial wrote: post #61
MobileVet wrote: post #13

Good. Hold them accountable and make sure that this kind of thing doesn’t happen again. Although a ‘same plane’ cert was a good goal, they should have made sure it was truly accurate instead of bending the case to make it so. This may be as close to an ‘open and shut’ case for corporate gross negligence as we will find in quite a while (at least I hope so). I would hate to see them go under but it should be clear tha…

And how are they going to be held accountable? They already have several contracts which states victims can't sue the company. Maybe not everyone signed, but then it's about how much they can pay their lawyers.

Even if they manage to dodge civil liability (which is unlikely), a number of nations could bring criminal charges for the deaths caused by the two crashes. In addition most major nations have the option to bring criminal charges against Boeing for endangering the lives of their citizens.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#93

Post by village-idiot »

radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

I’m okay flying on the older 737s. Those are proven enough that we know what they’ll do; the biggest risk for those older planes is the safety culture for the airline, not Boeing.

Any of their newer stuff? No way.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#94

Post by StreamBright »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #51
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

Nope, risks are insignificant. It's extremely irrational to be scared to fly on Boeing.

There is the comment below about the 4 order of magnitude difference between A320 vs. 737MAX. And there is confirmation bias that can save your life.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#95

Post by bilbo0s »

seren wrote: post #75
bilbo0s wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still kills me that they let Boeing 'self-certify' their own airplanes. I had a diagnostic medical imaging startup. You can't even imagine the pain the FDA inflicted on our bottom line before they would give an OK on anything. But the FAA is out there just taking the word of some company's engineers that "Yeah. We're good."? I guess I just thought that all of the regulation, was like it was in the healthcare field…

On the other hand, if you can submit a "new" medical device through the 510k process, it is the device manufacturer that certifies that the new equipment is equivalent to an existing product. That is mostly comparable to what Boeing did.

You can say that it is equivalent, but the FDA will still make you prove it with the relevant tests and documentation.

And look, I'm not saying it's wrong that Boeing has it a lot easier than I did. I'm just asking what's the justification? In my case I get it. Imagine you're submitting a device that shoots high levels of radiation, at extremely high power, into the human body to kill cancer cells?

Well yeah. I understand. The FDA doesn't care that you believe this device is the same as the last one.

You're shooting high yield radiation...

At levels fatal to humans...

In the middle of a hospital...

Which itself is potentially in the middle of a population center?

OK, yeah, I get it. They're gonna check the new device as thoroughly as they checked the old one. No one wants the equivalent of a dirty bomb going off in some small town. I'm not complaining about that.

I even understand that Boeing doesn't shoot radiation all over the place, so maybe things can be a bit more lenient? I get that maybe that was the justification? But here's the thing, Boeing can still kill people, as is plainly evident. Why is the government being so lax on them, while at the same time giving my RTP product the equivalent of a regulatory colonoscopy?

I mean, if anything, both products should get the regulatory colonoscopy.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#96

Post by alkonaut »

mmrezaie wrote: post #10

I flied to Cyprus from Stockholm with Norwegian last week. On the plane it was written 737-800 or 737 Max. I wonder how you can tell them apart and if Norwegian uses the Max line!?

Norwegians 15 737-MAX8 are of course still grounded. No airline is "cheating" and flying with a grounded plane.

The planes are very similar (which is the whole selling point). That's why they can use the same safety instructions, which is probably where you saw the text "737-800/737 MAX8" printed. As others said, they are most easily told apart by the different look of their wing tips.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#97

Post by anoncake »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #51
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

Nope, risks are insignificant. It's extremely irrational to be scared to fly on Boeing.

You aren't one of those who say people should “vote with their wallets”, are you?

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#98

Post by village-idiot »

ulfw wrote: post #63
wycy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be extremely hesitant to ever fly on a 737 MAX again because, even when MCAS is fixed, software is being used to fix a fundamental physics problem. I'd fly on other Boeing planes without worry, though.

The fix for the 787s Lithium battery problems wasn't a whole lot better. Remember those exploding left and right and the 787 fleet grounded? The fix wasn't to reengineer the large amount of electrical systems, lack of bleed air or use of different batteries. The fix was to put them in a stronger container with a hole in it so they can vent outside when they inevitably blow up again. That has worked well. So far. Kind…

That’s horrifying.

I’ve also heard that the 787 was a boondoggle.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#99

Post by jussij »

sjg007 wrote: post #69
radcon wrote: post #40

Is anyone else extremely reluctant to fly on a Boeing plane after this? A lot of people say "It's no big deal, they just need to update the MCAS software" , but I see this entire situation as a sign of much deeper issues at Boeing, issues that can't be fixed with a simple software update and could affect every plane they make.

They've had similar issues before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

So past history tells us the 737 was marred by multiple fatal crashes cashed by bad rudder design.

Recent history tells us the 737-MAX has also been marred with some serious design issues relating to it's MCAS system, which have resulted in multiple fatal crashes.

That history suggests passengers should be wary of boarding a 737-MAX any time soon.

I for one will give it a few years before taking up that boarding pass.

Re: Europe says 737 Max won't fly until it completes it own design review

#100

Post by ddalex »

ulfw wrote: post #70
mimixco wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they just extended the range of the A220.

Time to extend the plane and make it an A320/738-8 sized A220-500!

Make it a double decker single-aisle 2/3 seat split and name it A280.
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