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ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

bbc.com

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Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#41

Post by ghobs91 »

molteanu wrote: post #21
ckugblenu wrote: post #2

This looks more like a global chess match than anything else.

This looks like the USA is afraid of China's might, so what else should it do than to fight it's rise and development with all means possible (like it's already doing in the Middle East [1]). Or did you actually think this is all about "democracy", "free markets", "dictators" and the like? When the battle gets rough, big guns show up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_containment

Or maybe this is retaliation for the billions Chinese companies have made off stolen American IP. Ever thought of that? To imply this is pure protectionism is over simplifying it.

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#42

Post by craigsmansion »

simion314 wrote: post #27
zaphar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one critical difference between America and China here. American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. Whatever you may think of the wisdom of a trade war, no one can really argue that China hasn't given the US all the ammunition it needed to give political cover to engaged in one.

I am wondering if the huge IP theft is mostly propaganda similar to the one US uses before it starts a war or changes some government in other country.

It depends.

The most well-known and common form of "IP theft" is cheaply made Chinese knock-offs that are forgeries. That's trademark infringement. It's not that big of a problem.

What is an actual problematic form of "IP theft" is China appropriating trade-secrets.

The bulk of "IP theft" that is used to fuel the current war of words seems to be patent infringement. Patent infringement sounds problematic, but really isn't. Even though China can produce devices that infringe, they can't sell those goods back to areas of the world where patent enforcement isn't as lax. They can sell them in China and that's a large market, but:

- companies buying cheaply produced local copies weren't likely to buy the real thing in the first place.

- Local copies are of inferior quality. By the time the local copies approach the quality of the original, they will be priced in the same ballpark as the original (and the original will be on the next generation).

So yes, there is "IP theft" going on, but once again the term "IP" is being thrown around to obfuscate matters to support a political end and reality is quite a bit more complex but not as threatening as it's made out to be.

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#43

Post by patentatt »

yogthos wrote: post #15
zaphar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one critical difference between America and China here. American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. Whatever you may think of the wisdom of a trade war, no one can really argue that China hasn't given the US all the ammunition it needed to give political cover to engaged in one.

Nobody is going to care about this in the long run, and it's pretty clear that China has already moved past US capabilities with tech like 5G. This will only spur more investment in domestic technology. China has a far better education system, a lot more people, and a government that's able to do long term planning. I expect them to leapfrog US within a decade or so.

That overlooks the long history and cultural norm of borrowing or copying to advance. Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. If China does become a tech leader it will have to shift those deeply rooted cultural forces first. That, and their government that is capable of long term planning is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. I do not think China will become the technology leader you’re hypothesizing.

Edit: Why don’t you ask the millions in the re-education camps how advanced China’s education system is?

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#44

Post by jolfdb »

ghobs91 wrote: post #41
molteanu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks like the USA is afraid of China's might, so what else should it do than to fight it's rise and development with all means possible (like it's already doing in the Middle East [1]). Or did you actually think this is all about "democracy", "free markets", "dictators" and the like? When the battle gets rough, big guns show up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_containment

Or maybe this is retaliation for the billions Chinese companies have made off stolen American IP. Ever thought of that? To imply this is pure protectionism is over simplifying it.

Or maybe IP theft is retaliation for the opium wars.

It's silly to look at a centuries long geopolitical struggle for hegemony through the lens of fair play as though it's just a game among friends.

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#45

Post by yogthos »

patentatt wrote: post #43
yogthos wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is going to care about this in the long run, and it's pretty clear that China has already moved past US capabilities with tech like 5G. This will only spur more investment in domestic technology. China has a far better education system, a lot more people, and a government that's able to do long term planning. I expect them to leapfrog US within a decade or so.

That overlooks the long history and cultural norm of borrowing or copying to advance. Chinese culture does not place the same value on pioneering as the US. If China does become a tech leader it will have to shift those deeply rooted cultural forces first. That, and their government that is capable of long term planning is also incapable of tolerating diversity, dissent, and free thought. I do not think China will be…

Are we talking about the same China here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#46

Post by DCKing »

I see a lot of people dreaming about Huawei needing to pivot to open source technology, but the overwhelmingly likely outcome here is that the trade dispute gets (partially) resolved to the extent that Huawei can operate as usual again.

Dreaming of Huawei backed RISC V SoCs is a pipe dream anyway, at least for mobile processors. For a mobile SoC you need a GPU as well. There are no viable open source GPU architectures, and all vendors are US-based (Vivante, Broadcom (?), AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Intel, only the first three ever do licensing deals) or UK based (ARM (Mali), PowerVR).

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#47

Post by ghobs91 »

jolfdb wrote: post #44
ghobs91 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe this is retaliation for the billions Chinese companies have made off stolen American IP. Ever thought of that? To imply this is pure protectionism is over simplifying it.

Or maybe IP theft is retaliation for the opium wars. It's silly to look at a centuries long geopolitical struggle for hegemony through the lens of fair play as though it's just a game among friends.

In which case this move against huawei is "just business".

It's their problem now to figure out how to develop top tier hardware and software without stealing it from American companies and rebranding it.

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#48

Post by naraic0o »

unixhero wrote: post #10
yread wrote: post #3

That seems like a pretty big deal. I wonder if they have a response to that (like the "spare tyres in the safe" [0]). Would be cool if future phones from Huawei ran on China produced MIPS chips [0] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/huaweis-chip-arm...

Well RISC v5 is open source.

I think you mean RISC-V (V being the Roman numeral for 5).

The MIPS ISA is now also open source, as of Q1 2019[0].

[0] https://www.mips.com/mipsopen/

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#49

Post by thkim »

yogthos wrote: post #15
zaphar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one critical difference between America and China here. American companies have for the most part not been engaging in wholesale state sponsored theft of Chinese IP. Whatever you may think of the wisdom of a trade war, no one can really argue that China hasn't given the US all the ammunition it needed to give political cover to engaged in one.

Nobody is going to care about this in the long run, and it's pretty clear that China has already moved past US capabilities with tech like 5G. This will only spur more investment in domestic technology. China has a far better education system, a lot more people, and a government that's able to do long term planning. I expect them to leapfrog US within a decade or so.

I doubt it. Chinese system only works when they are playing catch up. There is no incentive for being a pioneer in a culture where IP is not protected. The system doesn't work when they need to push above everyone else.

Re: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with Huawei

#50

Post by mr_toad »

ghobs91 wrote: post #41
molteanu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks like the USA is afraid of China's might, so what else should it do than to fight it's rise and development with all means possible (like it's already doing in the Middle East [1]). Or did you actually think this is all about "democracy", "free markets", "dictators" and the like? When the battle gets rough, big guns show up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_containment

Or maybe this is retaliation for the billions Chinese companies have made off stolen American IP. Ever thought of that? To imply this is pure protectionism is over simplifying it.

This goes beyond protectionism. It's more like mercantilism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

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