A Revolution in Your Pocket • Hacker News Board

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#31

Post by sorrowfulgeek » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:03 AM UTC

This is not a new idea. Apple already emphasises that they do all the machine learning on your own device and no data is sent to the cloud. But this approach only works well for a small class of problems. For other types of problems you need to look at data wholistically at a large scale in order to see patterns and you need a cloud service.

But more importantly we know that complex services break once in a while. If such services run on entirely on your personal device then the complexity of your device goes up exponentially. That’s not good. We learned in the 90’s that a better model is to centralize complexity, and make end devices as simple as possible. (Look up Larry Ellison’s 90’s speeches about Network Computing.) So, no, moving the center of computing to personal devices is not a good idea!

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#32

Post by foobarian » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:10 AM UTC

GregoryPerry wrote: post #27

stickfigure wrote: post #20

This is just... weird. We have centralized services for a lot of reasons, but one of them is that they're more reliable than decentralized systems. Phones get lost, stolen, drowned, and crushed. People drive through tunnels or into mountains without cell signal. Batteries die. It seems patently absurd to think that a P2P network of handsets is somehow going to replace The Datacenter, on any timescale.

That's pretty much the intent and role of IPFS though. Based upon current saturation statistics for mobile telephone handsets (which has to be 95%+ for every person 15+ years old in the USA at least), you're only a few meters away from another handset that's likely GPS enabled. Why in the world do we need centralized mobile carrier infrastructure when mesh-based P2P comms are now possible over ISM band networks? An I…

Mesh networks unfortunately scale really poorly [1]: O(1/sqrt(N)). You really need a fat backbone to turn the topology into something more like a hypercube.

[1] https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/grid:mobicom01/paper.pdf

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#33

Post by ekianjo » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:12 AM UTC

Sharing data directly from mobile sounds like a poor idea since data caps and data volume pricing is rampant in many countries. Plus it is likely to make a poor battery life even worse. I would rather folks upload data on their home or shared servers for sharing purposes.

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#34

Post by robomc » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:16 AM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #2

Is there any hope we can have something like a "Linux phone" someday and not have to cater to anyone or any privacy infringement at all?

What would this accomplish? I use Linux for my computers but I still log into to numerous cloud services.

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#35

Post by GregoryPerry » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:20 AM UTC

foobarian wrote: post #32

GregoryPerry wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty much the intent and role of IPFS though. Based upon current saturation statistics for mobile telephone handsets (which has to be 95%+ for every person 15+ years old in the USA at least), you're only a few meters away from another handset that's likely GPS enabled. Why in the world do we need centralized mobile carrier infrastructure when mesh-based P2P comms are now possible over ISM band networks? An I…

Mesh networks unfortunately scale really poorly [1]: O(1/sqrt(N)). You really need a fat backbone to turn the topology into something more like a hypercube. [1] https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/papers/grid:mobicom01/paper.pdf

...for static ad hoc networks. GPS-based geographical routing would be a dynamic, constantly changing optimized mesh.

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#36

Post by atomical » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:32 AM UTC

sorrowfulgeek wrote: post #31

This is not a new idea. Apple already emphasises that they do all the machine learning on your own device and no data is sent to the cloud. But this approach only works well for a small class of problems. For other types of problems you need to look at data wholistically at a large scale in order to see patterns and you need a cloud service. But more importantly we know that complex services break once in a while. If…

Brave browser also does machine learning locally.

It's definitely a value add for Apple users and something Tim Cook relishes throwing in Zuckerberg's face.

Other companies don't seem to care so much. I think a good compromise is having more data in the cloud that can only be decrypted by the user.

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#37

Post by narag » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:33 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #20

This is just... weird. We have centralized services for a lot of reasons, but one of them is that they're more reliable than decentralized systems. Phones get lost, stolen, drowned, and crushed. People drive through tunnels or into mountains without cell signal. Batteries die. It seems patently absurd to think that a P2P network of handsets is somehow going to replace The Datacenter, on any timescale.

It seems patently absurd to think that a P2P network of handsets is somehow going to replace The Datacenter, on any timescale.

Have you noticed that each and every piece of the web has its antiparticle?

The original web was the browser with links and simple graphical presentation, some server scripts and SQL databases. Then we've had single page applications in which links lead nowhere, nosql, serverless. This is like extreme serverless or webless.

If you can think of another basic web element, you can invent some new anti-paradigm that will be loved, hated and discussed endlessly over here.

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#38

Post by fwip » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:38 AM UTC

tomxor wrote: post #21

fwip wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smartphone penetration in the US is over 75%. That's not just San Francisco tech bubbles, that's most of America. Over half of China has a smartphone. Venezuela, the country where it's hard to buy bread, has 40% smartphone penetration.

I'm pretty sure those aren't the expensive 1k phones the author was highlighting. Also the world is bigger than America + China.

They're two separate sentences.

Many, maybe most people have smartphones.

The most expensive of those have these stats.

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#39

Post by marcinzm » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:43 AM UTC

GregoryPerry wrote: post #27

stickfigure wrote: post #20

This is just... weird. We have centralized services for a lot of reasons, but one of them is that they're more reliable than decentralized systems. Phones get lost, stolen, drowned, and crushed. People drive through tunnels or into mountains without cell signal. Batteries die. It seems patently absurd to think that a P2P network of handsets is somehow going to replace The Datacenter, on any timescale.

That's pretty much the intent and role of IPFS though. Based upon current saturation statistics for mobile telephone handsets (which has to be 95%+ for every person 15+ years old in the USA at least), you're only a few meters away from another handset that's likely GPS enabled. Why in the world do we need centralized mobile carrier infrastructure when mesh-based P2P comms are now possible over ISM band networks? An I…

Doesn't GPS and the wireless antenna use a decent amount of power and thus cut battery life quiet a bit if they're being used constantly?

Re: A Revolution in Your Pocket

#40

Post by jcfrei » Wed, May 22, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

This is an idea that keeps coming back every 2 years or so. While it is enticing to think about, these ideas never manifest into anything. With most decentralized projects there usually hasn't been a big enough financial incentive to execute them.