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The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

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Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#81

Post by underwater »

davesque wrote: post #11

A bit off-topic, but I've kind of struggled mentally since finishing The Dark Forest . Even though it's science fiction, it actually seems hard to argue with the theory in the book -- that civilizations must act to eliminate each other or they are overwhelmingly likely to be eliminated themselves. I'd like to believe it's not true, but so long as any two civilizations are likely to have dramatically different rates o…

I figure that the age of global discovery and colonialism that happened here on Earth is a case study. Fixed resources, different cultures, huge differences in technology. It wasn't great, but also, many distinct cultures and peoples survived.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#82

Post by BillSaysThis »

derp_dee_derp wrote: post #79
Kye wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is an expansive concept beyond the usual usage. Tweets and posts can lead to all kinds. Recent example: at least one politician being milkshaked after the first incident. And even though I find fascist views abhorrent, I can see the fear they feel about the possibility of being clocked post-Spencer as a sort of violence. Oddly, these same people would reject the notion of violence as something beyond immedia…

There is no such thing as economic violence either. The word you are looking for is discrimination.

Actually, maybe calling these things violence would do more good in getting people to understand the problems need solutions.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#83

Post by matz1 »

Kye wrote: post #76
derp_dee_derp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tweets and internet posts are not violence.

Violence is an expansive concept beyond the usual usage. Tweets and posts can lead to all kinds. Recent example: at least one politician being milkshaked after the first incident. And even though I find fascist views abhorrent, I can see the fear they feel about the possibility of being clocked post-Spencer as a sort of violence. Oddly, these same people would reject the notion of violence as something beyond immedia…

Sure, if you redefine the word violence. To me violence has to involve physical force.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#84

Post by Kye »

matz1 wrote: post #83
Kye wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is an expansive concept beyond the usual usage. Tweets and posts can lead to all kinds. Recent example: at least one politician being milkshaked after the first incident. And even though I find fascist views abhorrent, I can see the fear they feel about the possibility of being clocked post-Spencer as a sort of violence. Oddly, these same people would reject the notion of violence as something beyond immedia…

Sure, if you redefine the word violence. To me violence has to involve physical force.

I don't need to redefine it. This usage is common among people who work on and with these subjects. KirinDave was using it in the sense used by sociologists and people who depend on their work.

These kinds of conversations would be less touchy if people defined their terms in advance so everyone is on the same page. It's okay though. It's all cleared up now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence#Types

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#85

Post by panarky »

ystrickler wrote: post #16
beat wrote: post #4

As much as I love Cixin Liu's "Dark Forest" concept (I've sung my praises of his novels quite a bit here), I'm not sure this post fully fleshes out the analogy. I think it could be developed further, though. What makes Cixin's dark forest so awful is that new intelligent species are going out into a Universe with other species millions of years more advanced than they are, species that can easily exterminate entire s…

I cut some of this out before hitting publish, but I had originally included more about the emotional and status anxiety of posting publicly, reputation management, and the risks to self posed by the way these platforms work. I ultimately cut those things because I thought they distracted from the overall idea and it's something we already hear so much of. I definitely wouldn't say this analogy is 1:1 with Liu Cixin'…

I identified with this post immediately -- both because of the Cixin Liu reference and my own behavior recently.

Before: good opsec, ad blockers, minimal social media under my own name, anonymous and pseudonymous accounts, etc.

Now:

Between 5 and 10 spam, scam or phishing voice calls every day to mobile phone, home phone and office phone.

So now I never answer any phone unless I'm expecting your call and all ringers are always off.

Political operatives of every persuasion are knocking on my door at home several times a week, and there's not even an election on right now. They all have mobile apps, logging every interaction in a central database.

So now I don't answer my own door at home.

Used to enjoy discussing current events, economics, geopolitics, tech policy with family and work friends. We usually disagreed, but it was fun to talk and often I learned a new perspective.

But now these discussions are amped up to 11, emotionally charged in every direction, so these conversations only happen with intimate friends now.

I'm either living in a dark forest or I'm a turtle withdrawing into its shell.

Meanwhile, others in my neighborhood are emerging from their shells, flying confederate flags and more obscure but hateful symbols, and advocating neighborhood militias on Nextdoor.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#86

Post by KirinDave »

derp_dee_derp wrote: post #66
KirinDave wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken like someone who has never pissed off fascists and found death threats in their PO box. Or lost their job because of a tweet about men being sexisg. Or (to flip the political spectrum), been carefully outed from your hidden fascist leanings by undercover agents and machine learning, instantly losing your job and being evicted from your home. Violence exists on the internet.

Tweets and internet posts are not violence.

I'm fairly certain that I did not describe tweets. I describe information and identity disclosures that led to significant negative outcomes for individuals.

That the internet is their delivery medium is not particularly important to the outcome, but it is the subject of the conversation here.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#87

Post by KirinDave »

matz1 wrote: post #83
Kye wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is an expansive concept beyond the usual usage. Tweets and posts can lead to all kinds. Recent example: at least one politician being milkshaked after the first incident. And even though I find fascist views abhorrent, I can see the fear they feel about the possibility of being clocked post-Spencer as a sort of violence. Oddly, these same people would reject the notion of violence as something beyond immedia…

Sure, if you redefine the word violence. To me violence has to involve physical force.

I am fairly certain that if I organized a campaign of robbery against people who use hacker news you would not be opposed to calling that violence even if I didn't need to resort to physical violence to get your money.

It doesn't really matter though, "violence" does not need to be physical as per the dictionary definition. nor in common usage is it uncommon to talk about violence in many senses.

You're free to define it as you like, but this is not what most people mean when they say, "violence" so I'm afraid a lot of miscommunication is in your Future if you choose to persist.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#88

Post by KirinDave »

derp_dee_derp wrote: post #79
Kye wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is an expansive concept beyond the usual usage. Tweets and posts can lead to all kinds. Recent example: at least one politician being milkshaked after the first incident. And even though I find fascist views abhorrent, I can see the fear they feel about the possibility of being clocked post-Spencer as a sort of violence. Oddly, these same people would reject the notion of violence as something beyond immedia…

There is no such thing as economic violence either. The word you are looking for is discrimination.

Why is there no such thing?

Because you say so? That exact phrase appears to be in common usage globally. Given that, who's actually out of step with reality here?

The word discrimination describes what an discriminator does. Violence usually applied to what a victim experiences. Surely we can imagine a scenario where someone experiences violence without discrimination occuring.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#89

Post by matz1 »

KirinDave wrote: post #87
matz1 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you redefine the word violence. To me violence has to involve physical force.

I am fairly certain that if I organized a campaign of robbery against people who use hacker news you would not be opposed to calling that violence even if I didn't need to resort to physical violence to get your money. It doesn't really matter though, "violence" does not need to be physical as per the dictionary definition. nor in common usage is it uncommon to talk about violence in many senses. You're free to defin…

Unless you or someone else actually do the robbery physically then I wouldn't call it violent.

There is a reason that dictionary define it the way it is, its because enough people use it that way.

Re: The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet

#90

Post by mikeash »

ethbro wrote: post #75
beat wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there's some prior art. But it's not necessary or relevant to cite the prior art when talking about a specific work. If you read carefully, you'll find I didn't claim he was the originator, because duh.

I was taking issue with the medium post. "In his sci-fi trilogy The Three Body Problem, author Liu Cixin presents the dark forest theory of the universe." "Liu invites us to think about this a different way."

I don’t see that as implying he came up with the idea. They’re just referencing a recent use of it with a catchy name.
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