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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#181

Post by dominotw »

inetknght wrote: post #88
dominotw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation. Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing. Creating preemptive 'not allowed' laws would be throwing baby out of bathwater.

> Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing. Waiting until later will adversely affect many millions, potentially billions, of people.

doing it now will also adversely affect many millions, potentially billions, of people. Tesla relies on that data to improve their autonomous systems.

We don't even know what % of ppl are actually opposed to sharing this data. I've not heard many tesla owners complaining about this.

Making false equivalences between this and your personal health information and spreading fear is so counterproductive.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#182

Post by bwb »

JohnFen wrote: post #169
bwb wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not being forced to reveal anything, that data might not be your data and thus not your decision to reveal aspects of it.

I think the crux of this issue is what is or is not "my" data. I think that any data that is generated as a result of my actions, or by machines that I own, is my data for all intents and purposes. I understand that you disagree with that. That's entirely fair, and I'm not trying to change your thinking on this. What I'm trying to understand is on what basis you are deciding what is or is not my data.

Yep, we disagree on this :).

Sure, I'll take a stab at that. Data is data, it doesn't belong to someone just because they played a role in creating it.

You don't care about the water company tracking your water usage or knowing how often you flush your toilet is my guess. Yet that is data you are creating. If you found out the water company was checking your dropping for drug usage and selling that to the government you might care. Or if they were selling it to employment screeners who didn't want to hire people with Crohn's disease that might be another.

I would argue the intent of data is what matters and this discussion is really about. I want to see data used for improving society and discussin how we draw those lines and who gets access.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#183

Post by dominotw »

danso wrote: post #98
dominotw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation. Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing. Creating preemptive 'not allowed' laws would be throwing baby out of bathwater.

The U.S. federal gov’t, via HIPAA, took a stance on what health providers could do with patient data, rather than settling for a stance of “just find the nearest hospital with your preferred terms and conditions” or “keep in mind you don’t need to see a doctor”

> you don't need to buy a tesla

> you don’t need to see a doctor

Totally ridiculous strawman.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#184

Post by bwb »

JohnFen wrote: post #179
bwb wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, you are not being forced, it isn't your data to start with is a different POV to approach this from. You are stuck in the mindset that because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership.

> Like I said, you are not being forced I don't know why you say this, though, when you are arguing that I should be. > because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership. In the absence of a compelling reason otherwise, I demand such ownership.

I just don't get why you think that data is yours.

I don't see that data as anyway owned by you, you might have rights to aspects of it, but in no way can you demand ownership over something you don't own.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#185

Post by lutorm »

salawat wrote: post #167
kevas wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...this has been happening for a long time already.

Under the radar. Without visibility. How does it come as a surprise when things that were only recognized as having gone on underneath layer after layer of technical jargon are finally brought to general public awareness? You don't get in trouble for doing things, you get in trouble for getting caught doing them. It's been a long time in coming, but awareness is finally starting to hit tipping points in meaningful wa…

Under the radar.

No, literally by the radar... I'm confused what you mean. Surely it's not news to a pilot that ATC facilities save radar data. For how long is a different question.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#186

Post by [deleted] »

jchrisa wrote: post #21
stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

Agree. Any activity that is so hostile to other people should be monitored aggressively, and privileges revoked for the slightest reason. By the same token, you should need to file an individual route permit anytime you want to exceed 20 mph in a multi-ton vehicle. The externalized social costs of designating ~25% of our cities' surface area to violent human exclusion zones is hard to overstate. For one example, it's…

[deleted]

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#187

Post by lutorm »

bwb wrote: post #162
JohnFen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the notion that data you have a role in creating is yours seems extreme. The notion that it's OK for me to be forced to send such data to others seems extreme to me.

Like I said, you are not being forced, it isn't your data to start with is a different POV to approach this from. You are stuck in the mindset that because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership.

How about the POV that if I buy the device, I decide what the device does? This is a fundamental property right. You may argue that the data created isn't "mine", but I would argue that it is absolutely my data if it is created by a device I own. The fact that someone else manufactured the device doesn't give them some sort of retained ownership once they sell it to me.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#188

Post by lutorm »

bwb wrote: post #132
inetknght wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see how you might think I'm not seeing other viewpoints. Instead, perhaps you should see that I am rejecting other viewpoints. And I can see how it would worry you: your comments worry me too. So let me re-frame our conversation. Let me re-root it to something that I will not budge on: If I buy a device then I own the data on it. If I own a device then I own the data collected by it. If I own data, then I have…

Yep, I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that I do not agree with you :). I do not think buying a device means that the data it produces is solely yours to control/own. You are welcome to disagree with me :)

So would you please post the data on your devices here on HN, since you think we are all collectively owners of it? How about we start with your location and search history.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#189

Post by mattmanser »

bwb wrote: post #116
danso wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like that is just a fear-based response to the world, maybe we all need to be more open about who we are both for ourselves and for other people in the world. This is a textbook presumption — you insinuate that someone’s desire to not publicly transmit their sexual/politics must be irrational, and/or everyone (or even most people) is actually in a situation where they don’t have to fear that. What is this “e…

Yes, it is a presumption, that doesn't mean it might not be something to think about and consider? I don't think I need to explain the extreme privacy view, it is alive and well in this community.

It's not extreme, it's what most people have had for millennia.

New technology is deanonymizing public space, invasions of privacy previously required great effort and expense, now they can be done trivially by accessing data on your phone, or now your car.

The ramifications of this haven't become clear to you because no-one important's decided to fuck your life over yet or you live as a conformist, but for many of the rest of us the potential downsides are glaringly obvious.

People are getting screwed by this right now in China and N.Korea. It is a real and present danger that may have ramifications for you or people you love in the future, and may even get them killed. McCarthyism was only 50 years ago, the Stasi 30, the Nazis 70. The Dutch inadvertently caused the deaths of thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of Jews by having a religious question on their census before the Nazis took over.

It happened before, it will happen again, and just because you don't know high school history, or simply didn't learn the lesson of it, doesn't make us extreme.

It just makes you extremely naive.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#190

Post by bwb »

lutorm wrote: post #187
bwb wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, you are not being forced, it isn't your data to start with is a different POV to approach this from. You are stuck in the mindset that because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership.

How about the POV that if I buy the device, I decide what the device does? This is a fundamental property right. You may argue that the data created isn't "mine", but I would argue that it is absolutely my data if it is created by a device I own. The fact that someone else manufactured the device doesn't give them some sort of retained ownership once they sell it to me.

Yep, that is def an option for you to believe, I just am not agreeing with that POV :)

I do object to thinking it has precedent. This is a new situation that is going to get bigger with iot.

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