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Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#41

Post by fmajid »

gumby wrote: post #15
dragonwriter wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. I've seen that convention used in English-language sources more often than in French-language sources, which seem to usually use the pattern (also dominant in English) of initial caps for names with none of the name elements in all caps. Is that really a “French convention”?

That's not used in literature or journalism, but in most other cases (forms, etc) it is pretty standard.

I can confirm. Also, in many cases, French names are last name first, e.g. in the military, but there is a comma to separate, e.g. "Lacombe, Lucien"

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#42

Post by mcguire »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #34
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong, or contrary to your preferred style? I see names like Macdonald and MacDonald, where one family prefers the mid-capitalisation to another or family names like De Havilland. But it seems like a reasonable disambiguation to capitalise a family name. Could you be more specific about what makes it "wrong". FWIW my family name is commonly misspelt, life is too short to get too hung up about it. In my case it's just…

In genealogical research it's typical to not only standardize capitalization of family names (typically to ALL CAPS) but to also standardize spelling to the most common or first used spelling. Otherwise searching becomes a very frustrating venture, and these things change surprisingly quickly through generations.

Good luck with mcguire. ;-)

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#43

Post by madcaptenor »

dragonwriter wrote: post #7
xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

> English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. I've seen that convention used in English-language sources more often than in French-language sources, which seem to usually use the pattern (also dominant in English) of initial caps for names with none of the name elements in all caps. Is that really a “French convention”?

I've seen this convention used by English-speaking academic mathematicians (who perhaps picked it up from the French).

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#44

Post by zapzupnz »

knolax wrote: post #33
falsedan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It disregards the cultural history of names to suit what’s easiest for Western Europeans to understand.

I really don't see how it "It disregards the cultural history of names". As far as I'm concerned the order of the names is just a minor grammatical difference.

One person cannot speak for an entire gamut of people. There will be people for whom the way one says their name is not a simple matter of grammar but of identity, pride, family history, etc. The Japanese respect the rest of the world enough not to reverse our names — Brad Pitt doesn't become Pitt Brad — so there's no reason why we cannot accord the same back.

There may also be great personal meaning or even simple wordplay in their name, said in a specific order, that is lost in translation.

One (admittedly fatuous; ignore that I'm choosing a fictional character, it's merely for illustration) example is the main character from the manga The Disastrous Life of Saiki K — the name Saiki Kusuo contains a pun (the first three morae sound like 'psychic'), but this pun is lost whenever the name is written or said in Western order.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#45

Post by madcaptenor »

fmajid wrote: post #41
gumby wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not used in literature or journalism, but in most other cases (forms, etc) it is pretty standard.

I can confirm. Also, in many cases, French names are last name first, e.g. in the military, but there is a comma to separate, e.g. "Lacombe, Lucien"

The "Last, First" convention exists in English as well. To me it reads as something you'd see in the index of a book, since indices are usually ordered by last name but they'll want to show the first names as well.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#46

Post by firethief »

mrob wrote: post #8
xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

Some Japanese people do this already when writing their names in English, and Wikipedia's article "Japanese name" claims that it's recommended by the Ministry of Education. I'm usually against non-standard capitalization, but because it reduces the potential for confusion I support it here.

How is it non-standard?

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#47

Post by zapzupnz »

knolax wrote: post #35
azinman2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the comma breaks English grammar when it’s in the middle of a sentence.

That's a good point. Perhaps we could use Smith`John since the grave character is rarely used.

Inventing things like this is needless. We don't put commas or grave characters in Chinese and Korean names.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#48

Post by FabHK »

jlv2 wrote: post #14
xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

My last name is mixed case, so capitalizing it makes it wrong.

One could restrict it to the first mentioning in any (con)text. Would that be acceptable?

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#49

Post by maxander »

xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

As someone whose (bog-standard American-style) last name is also a common first name, this convention would save me a lot of trouble as well. It’s a consistent source of confusion for secretaries, receptionists, and so on.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#50

Post by firethief »

falsedan wrote: post #24
knolax wrote: post #19

Why can't we just write names as "Smith, John" when it's in the Asian order and "John Smith" or "John·Smith" if its in the Western order? It would remove all the ambiguity using already existing conventions.

It disregards the cultural history of names to suit what’s easiest for Western Europeans to understand.

We're already writing it in the Roman alphabet, but using the associated punctuation would offend you?
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