Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#51

Post by sokoloff » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #32

cheerlessbog wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the data revealed your predilection for visiting strip clubs? Would you want to have control over that information? At least with Google maps you control when it is on - and there is a privacy policy of some sort.

#1 - On your specific example... what is wrong with visiting strip clubs? Is that not someone's prerogative and legally allowed by society? Why should we be ashamed of that? #2 - I am not saying "no privacy", I want smart privacy :). It is a spectrum, not a binary choice. If that data is combined together so that the city knows traffic on road 1 is high and they need to invest in infrastructure there that is great. O…

Attending AA meetings, being treated for an STD or at a cancer center, and consistently leaving a bar at closing time are all perfectly legal, yet something people may wish to be able to exercise significant privacy over.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#52

Post by bwb » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #39

bwb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :) Facebook already has this, and most people are sharing this in the public sphere. I understand the worry and damage that can be done, but I feel like we are moving from a 1950s model of hide it all and pretend you a perfect, to more of a this is who I am and let me live my life as long as it doesn'…

I’m sorry, I usually expect these threads to turn into “but Orwell!” vs “but what do you have to hide?”, but this is the first time I can remember (at least on HN) in which a thread so quickly jumped to “but why should your sexual orientation not be for the public to know?” It’s great that you are in a situation where you believe you are able to publicize your sexual identity without detrimental consequences. But it…

Sigh, I don't assume that and I know it is not from many experiences. My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society, and we need strong regulations to protect both sides.

This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#53

Post by inetknght » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #37

danso wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the device is the primary contributor in terms of “creating the data”, then why are users needed? The users and their personal behavior and usage metrics are obviously the valuable part of the data — not the device that logs and measures the data. Also, (though I’m sure there’s “semantic” nuance in this too), the users are the ones who pay to possess and maintain the data-creating device.

It is a symbiotic relationship :) I do not think just because you are involved in creating data that means it is yours. When you give data to the census that isn't your data... when you click an ad and buy something that data isn't your data... I just don't get this notion that data is yours because you are involved in its creation. There is data about you that might be private or personal and should have protections…

> It is a symbiotic relationship :)

What you are saying is that users don't have a choice in the matter.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#54

Post by bwb » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

wool_gather wrote: post #44

bwb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :) Facebook already has this, and most people are sharing this in the public sphere. I understand the worry and damage that can be done, but I feel like we are moving from a 1950s model of hide it all and pretend you a perfect, to more of a this is who I am and let me live my life as long as it doesn'…

Yes. But. We haven't actually achieved that state of grace yet, so in the meantime, in some times and places people actually can be in danger because of who they are. Perhaps you have seen the names Muhlaysia Booker or Jamal Kashoggi in the news recently.

Yes, and I have lived in some of those places. I understand these concerns very well.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#55

Post by judge2020 » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

wool_gather wrote: post #35

tastroder wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, the how you do it includes where and when you do it, which is a major privacy concern. Sure, a black box to get telemetry after the fact might make sense, with specificity and my explicit knowledge when access happens. I'd have a hard time turning that into free data for any particular company or government to have though, vehicular deaths aren't the only issue in our world.

Very good point. Although, in the case of an accident, isn't your location already a matter of public record?

Not really/depends. Florida has the Public Records Act (which is why we have "Florida man" and "Florida woman" headlines) so there the police's crash report is public, but if your car hits another car on a backroad in any other state, more often than not only the two drivers, their insurance, and the police know about the event.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#56

Post by dominotw » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #45

dominotw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not be allowed to build a system that gives them my data for free by default. What do you mean by 'not allowed'. you have the option to not buy tsla if its such a concern to you. There are tons of ppl who are ok with giving out their data for free why shouldn't they be 'not allowed'. Weird agrument, I don't like it so noone else should either.

> What do you mean by 'not allowed'. you have the option to not buy tsla if its such a concern to you. This is a dangerous way of thinking. Transportation is a requirement for getting ahead in life. Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation.

> Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation.

Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing. Creating preemptive 'not allowed' laws would be throwing baby out of bathwater.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#57

Post by dsfyu404ed » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

>I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data.

>But given the number of vehicular deaths...

Ah the good 'ol "my principals go out the window when $emotionally_loaded_topic is involved."

Nobody, not the insurance company, the DMV, nor the people debugging the software in prod deserves access to ones data without express and informed (i.e. not a million word eula nobody reads) consent. It's no different than data generated by a cell phone or smart blender

Anyone worried about safety can find an external way to monitor that.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#58

Post by tastroder » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

wool_gather wrote: post #35

tastroder wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, the how you do it includes where and when you do it, which is a major privacy concern. Sure, a black box to get telemetry after the fact might make sense, with specificity and my explicit knowledge when access happens. I'd have a hard time turning that into free data for any particular company or government to have though, vehicular deaths aren't the only issue in our world.

Very good point. Although, in the case of an accident, isn't your location already a matter of public record?

Wouldn't think so, although I live in Germany so YMMV on that question.

Around here there would be a public record of an accidents location if it was big enough to bother waiting for the police, although the public portion of that would not be tied to my name or license plate. Announcements (by authorities) on larger accidents mostly contain maybe an age, gender, and generic vehicle information. Other than that only the two insurances involved would get more data.

The only thing I could think of that made more information public might be lawsuits that could occasionally result from an accident but I'm not sure on how public those currently are. Our news around here usually refrain from naming people in reporting anyway if it's not too relevant or it's a public person anyway.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#59

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

Authorities already have legal methods for accessing data that you otherwise own. That seems sufficient.

Corporations, on the other hand, have no such need.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#60

Post by bwb » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #42

bwb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semantics :), the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If the data plays a role in improving services or life for everyone let the data serve its role. We still need strong regulations and gov agencies to enforce/protect, but I just don't see the point of claiming everything is your data blah blah.

> the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it The user owns the device. Full stop.

Owning a device is not owning the data. Full stop :)