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Men, commit to mentor women

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Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#41

Post by inflatableDodo »

WordSkill wrote: post #25

> Not harassing women is not enough. > >Now more than ever, we need men to support women–not overlook or avoid them. They have got to be joking. If you care about your career, your family and your reputation, you simply do not leave yourself open to even the slightest possibility of being falsely accused of anything, or having someone suddenly “remember” something in ten or twenty years time if you reach the top leve…

>Like it or not, we are back to Victorian rules. At work, you never allow yourself to be alone with a female colleague.

Even the Victorians, for the most part, weren't actually this mental.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#42

Post by luckylion »

timavr wrote: post #30
WordSkill wrote: post #25

> Not harassing women is not enough. > >Now more than ever, we need men to support women–not overlook or avoid them. They have got to be joking. If you care about your career, your family and your reputation, you simply do not leave yourself open to even the slightest possibility of being falsely accused of anything, or having someone suddenly “remember” something in ten or twenty years time if you reach the top leve…

But a result, you treat them unfairly vs male colleagues. Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power. I can’t be in room with black, trans-gender, gay, immigrants etc. So as result the only people who you built relationships are white straight dudes which get promoted.

> Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power.

No, not really. There are basically zero (published) incidents where, for example, a black guy claims somebody else insulted him when they were alone. For trans women (not f2m, as far as I know), it gets dicey as well.

And you're certainly right: you'll treat them differently, which may be unfair to them, but risk you career to treat them fairly? I doubt that a lot of people will choose fairness to others over their future.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#43

Post by timavr »

cf498 wrote: post #39
timavr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that risk reward is so skewed in other direction. For anyone to accuse someone of sexual harassment is 100% career killing move. So when 2 people in the room, the one with least power has the most to loose in bringing accusations.

I dont think that is the case, but it might be a regional or cultural difference.

In America what person is going to gain by bringing accusations.

The best case is pay out, but they definitely lost this job, future opportunities, etc. They are not going to get recommendations letters.

As soon as you accuse someone you start costing company gigaton of money.

In America we promote/keep people who make money not cost money.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#44

Post by timavr »

inflatableDodo wrote: post #37
timavr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol. I like it.

Do you think I have much of a future in HR consultancy?

Yes. On serious note, it is huge opportunity even as non VC scale biz. It is infinite in nature.

I think the problem lies in gender education in schools and colleges, where people get lost in transition to adult life.

Like hitting on everyone/anyone in college is fair game because there is no power differential, but as soon as people enter workforce, they need to be retrained.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#45

Post by alfredallan2 »

xupybd wrote: post #5

It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where…

This precisely.

Think back to your interactions with others (siblings, playmates, etc.) as a kid. Those experiences taught you how to interact with others. Obviously there were mistakes - you learn to not punch others, call names, etc. The punishment was often a simple timeout, note to parents, etc.

People need to "learn" how to interact with "others" in a professional setting. This process of learning involves making mistakes. Unfortunately, in the professional workplace, the "punishment" usually involves HR, lawyers, and a risk to ruin one's career/reputation.

So most people prefer to not "learn", and instead stick to interacting with only those they are already comfortable with - e.g. people of the same gender, color, social class etc. Social media has already made this hell. More laws will only make this worse. Of course, this isn't helped by the fact that there are actual assholes who deliberately abuse others.

Anecdote - I once sent a stern/corrective email to a female colleague/junior. There was nothing gender specific in the message. My/our boss was in cc. She forwarded the mail to HR, and I got a rebuke from the boss (male) and an informal warning to not critique women. Voila.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#46

Post by timavr »

luckylion wrote: post #42
timavr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a result, you treat them unfairly vs male colleagues. Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power. I can’t be in room with black, trans-gender, gay, immigrants etc. So as result the only people who you built relationships are white straight dudes which get promoted.

> Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power. No, not really. There are basically zero (published) incidents where, for example, a black guy claims somebody else insulted him when they were alone. For trans women (not f2m, as far as I know), it gets dicey as well. And you're certainly right: you'll treat them differently, which may be unfair to them, but risk you career to treat them fairly? I…

Well that’s why people in power and leadership roles make big bucks.

They must make sure that everyone performs to the max of their ability and at the same time limit risks.

Otherwise it is work discrimination light.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#47

Post by inflatableDodo »

timavr wrote: post #44
inflatableDodo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think I have much of a future in HR consultancy?

Yes. On serious note, it is huge opportunity even as non VC scale biz. It is infinite in nature. I think the problem lies in gender education in schools and colleges, where people get lost in transition to adult life. Like hitting on everyone/anyone in college is fair game because there is no power differential, but as soon as people enter workforce, they need to be retrained.

I think the problem could be solved by a rule of no hitting on anyone in the workplace and much shorter working hours. People get horny. If you lock them up in the workplace for their entire waking life you are going to have some fairly predictable issues.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#48

Post by akvadrako »

anonymous5133 wrote: post #13

This was similar to the reaction of the Americans with Disabilities act. After the ADA was passed, the amount of disabled people employed actually decreased. Employers know that hiring an ADA employee would potentially result in an ADA lawsuit, so they avoided hiring them. It was the old well intention law with unintended consequences.

I don't know what makes you think those laws were well intentioned. Politics pass laws because it'll make themselves look good, not to help people.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#49

Post by danmaz74 »

timavr wrote: post #43
cf498 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think that is the case, but it might be a regional or cultural difference.

In America what person is going to gain by bringing accusations. The best case is pay out, but they definitely lost this job, future opportunities, etc. They are not going to get recommendations letters. As soon as you accuse someone you start costing company gigaton of money. In America we promote/keep people who make money not cost money.

> The best case is pay out, but they definitely lost this job, future opportunities, etc. They are not going to get recommendations letters.

You think this didn't change after MeToo? This kind of attitude can easily end in a legal and PR nightmare.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#50

Post by slowmovintarget »

timavr wrote: post #40
goldcd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK - more facetious than I thought. Sorry. Maybe more realistic scenario is just when working away asking "Can you come to my room so we can spend 30 mins updating the deck for tomorrow?" Think I'd have been fine asking that previously - and now maybe less so. We can try to lurk in a corner of the lobby, which is annoying loud and doesn't have a desk. But that change involves the thought of "maybe I'm considered to b…

Just change the question to? Are you OK with us continuing in my room because blah blah, otherwise we can just do it in the lobby. Basically, you give them power to decide where they feel comfortable most. Especially first time around. “Can you come to my room in 30m to do blah” is an order basically, so as a result you already create hostile situation irrelevant of gender.

That's still no good (opinion, not statement of fact).

Just suggest the lobby, or find a coffee shop. It may be annoying, but now you're not putting any burden on her at all. If she suggests an alternative, you can use your judgement, but why even put that on her in the first place?

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