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The Case for Rooms

citylab.com

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Re: The Case for Rooms

#101

Post by viburnum »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #68

This really seems like an extended "stop liking what I don't like" rant. There are legitimate reasons to prefer either open or closed kitchens, and most of them come down to personal preference. Personally, I like being in open, airy spaces. It's got nothing to do with "entertaining." Also, this: > A large, single, continuous space is harder to get and keep clean. Messes and smells are no longer isolated, but can be…

The same author makes the case for criticism in this article

https://thebaffler.com/kate-takes/dont-let-people-enjoy-thin...

Re: The Case for Rooms

#102

Post by opportune »

radcon wrote: post #50
jpm_sd wrote: post #14

The historical context portion of the article is interesting and well written, but the critique of the open-concept layout at the end seemed rushed and unconvincing. Anyone here who lives in a modern open-concept house care to comment? I currently live with my wife, 3 children and 2 dogs in a 1200 square foot split level and we all dream of a big open-concept house some day... but apparently some people are getting t…

I grew up in a house that looks like the first picture in the article ("An open-concept house in Massachusetts in 2005"). To me it always felt more like a hotel than a home, and the way sound traveled was horrible. You couldn't watch TV or talk in the family room at any reasonable volume without disturbing whoever was trying to sleep. It also seemed like a ridiculous waste of space. Instead of those high ceilings we…

Yes, I grew up in a house with an open floor plan for the first floor and open for the basement too. I never felt like I had any privacy because I could basically hear everything in the house at all times. Never had friends over in my teenage years because the way it was set up, there was no way to spend time with friends without my mom hearing everything

Re: The Case for Rooms

#103

Post by asciimov »

jpm_sd wrote: post #14

The historical context portion of the article is interesting and well written, but the critique of the open-concept layout at the end seemed rushed and unconvincing. Anyone here who lives in a modern open-concept house care to comment? I currently live with my wife, 3 children and 2 dogs in a 1200 square foot split level and we all dream of a big open-concept house some day... but apparently some people are getting t…

I grew up in a small house in the 90's that was essentially open concept, the small galley kitchen was isolated to one side like a small hallway opposite from the bedroom hallway. But could still see the open space.

Good things:

1. It is nice for entertaining.

2. Easier to keep an eye on children.

3. Flexibility to layout.

---

Issues:

1. How often do you really entertain? Not counting family visits, way less often than you think.

2. You will always be on top of other people. Examples see [2a]

3. Less flexibility than you think, tables and chairs still have to go somewhere.

4. Nowadays it is extremely popular to put a half bath in the large space. I don't like listening to people potty, I don't like being listened to while I potty, and potty smells can linger.

5. Do you like to clean? People today don't just drop by like they used to, a shame really, but any time you think people might be coming by, even just to drop off a small item, the whole area needs to be picked up. When you have separate rooms, you can quickly pile things into that area that your visitors wont see, not so with open concept.

6. Surprise parties are now harder to pull off.

---

[2a] - Say you have company down, and only want to talk to some of them, like when the women want to talk separate from the men. You want to do homework and have a quiet area. You want to read, your kids want to watch the same episode of Mickey Mouse Club House Again. You want to watch the big game, she wants to watch her "stories". You have two teenagers who like to fight for attention, can't separate them far enough with an open space.

Re: The Case for Rooms

#104

Post by rconti »

This article is a train-wreck of a justification for, I assume, the author's own personal taste in interior design.

It builds up a total straw man for why open concepts are terrible, built on ways in which almost none of us actually live.

What are the justifications for why "open concept" floor plans in which the kitchen flows into the living area?

* Open floor plans are an "acoustic nightmare". Try to imagine the horror of trying to watch television in the living room while some jerk in the kitchen bangs pots and pans trying to get your Totino's Pizza Rolls ready for you.

This point is at least fair. Yes, sound bleeds from one space to another, for better or for worse. But I don't want to live in a walled-off Victorian house. I don't have servants making me food. I don't have or want a partner who toils in some distant secluded space to make me my supper. When I'm cooking, I don't want to be isolated from 'the rest of the house'. I want to see the score in the game, or be able to talk to my partner as she unwinds after a long day, if I'm putting the dishes away.

* "Designing homes around “entertaining” that happens only a handful of times a year is a wasteful, yet still mindbogglingly popular practice. When people come to visit, they are there to see you, not your open concept."

But my open space allows me to communicate with my partner. Or have our parents over and speak with them while we prepare. Or, when we have "handful of times a year" parties, where people end up congregating in the kitchen ANYWAY, we're able to mingle and move freely. Moreover, the statement "they are there to see you, not your open concept" betrays an open hostility that the author clearly feels about WHY people design their spaces the way they do, that you're trying to show off, not that you could possibly PREFER to have spaces that blend together.

* We are now apparently building "mess kitchens" so that our fancy designer kitchens don't get messy.

Okay, but very few of us are rich enough to do this, go complain about those people doing that thing.

* Things are too far apart in an open concept! We have to install 2nd "pot sinks" so that our commute between the sink and the stove is not excessive! Everything is so far apart!

Again, rich people problems. Not open concept problems. Stuff can still be close together in an open space. Is the author complaining about the open concept, or the fact that some houses have kitchens marginally larger than an NYC efficiency kitchen you can't even turn around in?

* Heating and cooling such a large space is so inefficient!

Okay, because everyone WITHOUT an open concept has spaces that are easy to heat/cool separately? AFAIK most people use forced air or radiators or something, and don't really have the ability to heat one room at a time anyway.

* We're building these absurd she-sheds and man-caves as rebellion against the open concept!

... so you're admitting that the open-concept only refers to the kitchen and dining and living room, and despite this people still have their private spaces and it basically works just fine for everyone? You also recognize, again, that the open concept does not and has not ever extended to bedrooms or offices or other living spaces?

The article almost feels like a parody, since its example of a gloriously convenient 50s kitchen includes a washing machine and dryer and 1950s housewife who, conveniently, never needs to leave her unpaid working environment, or, for that matter, be seen at all.

Re: The Case for Rooms

#105

Post by cdubzzz »

bunderbunder wrote: post #92
humanrebar wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to cook for an hour without being alone. Privacy in the kitchen would never be desireable. When you have small kids: - You want them away from boiling water, dropped knives, and dangerously hot ovens. - You want them to keep sleeping even though you're vacuuming - You might want to let them watch Baby Shark for the 1000th blasted time while leaving you out of it - You might want to read a novel while they ho…

> You want them away from boiling water, dropped knives, and dangerously hot ovens. This sort of stuff is exactly why the separate kitchen doesn't work at our house. The kids want to be where they can see us, and, with the way our kitchen is set up, there's no way for them to do that without being underfoot. At the same time, we want to be able to keep at least a vague eye on them, and that's not not really possible…

Just a small aside re: kids being underfoot -- our little 1.5yo loves to spend time with us in the kitchen and always wants to be in on the action on the counter. This was problematic until we built him a little tower[0] to climb up and see/do things. We still have to be very aware of where we leave things on the counter, but he absolutely loves climbing up and down the thing and has mostly learned by now not to touch the stove or "big knives".

[0] https://www.ana-white.com/woodworking-projects/little-helper...

Re: The Case for Rooms

#106

Post by rconti »

mattnewton wrote: post #95

I found myself disagreeing with almost every point. Entertaining only happens a handful of times a year? What? Furthermore designing for it is wasteful? Why must it be? It’s an acoustic nightmare to have one big room that everyone can talk to in? Open floor plan housing makes smaller spaces feel larger by allowing all the rooms to be the living room or dining room as need be. It allows me to afford a place that feels…

I think it was basically a "spending hundreds of thousands to remodel your mansion to have a massive open floorplan just to show off to your friends makes me angry" rant that had nothing to do with how actual people use actual spaces.

We almost never have people over, but having an open space is wonderful even for just two of us, and there's certainly nothing wasteful about designing for edge cases if they don't make things worse the rest of the time.

Re: The Case for Rooms

#107

Post by rconti »

swagtricker wrote: post #32

Depending on your lifestyle, some areas are just a waste of space. It's just my wife, me, and two cats (children weren't in the cards) in a ~1000 sq/ft 2br/2ba condo. It's open concept built in the late 90's and when we look around on housing/remodel shows on TV or look at floor plans for our dream home (a whole 200 sq/ft larger with a pool) the #1 thing we kill off is the damn dining room. We eat in front of the TV…

But the dining room is not inherent in an open concept, and it's not absent in closed spaces. If anything, I find the "useless" formal dining rooms tend to exist more often in their own separate totally pointless room, where open floor plans tend to have more "usable" everyday dining spaces. not that you couldn't thrown in 2 or 3 or 4 dining rooms if you really wanted to be wasteful.

Re: The Case for Rooms

#108

Post by bunderbunder »

cdubzzz wrote: post #105
bunderbunder wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want them away from boiling water, dropped knives, and dangerously hot ovens. This sort of stuff is exactly why the separate kitchen doesn't work at our house. The kids want to be where they can see us, and, with the way our kitchen is set up, there's no way for them to do that without being underfoot. At the same time, we want to be able to keep at least a vague eye on them, and that's not not really possible…

Just a small aside re: kids being underfoot -- our little 1.5yo loves to spend time with us in the kitchen and always wants to be in on the action on the counter. This was problematic until we built him a little tower[0] to climb up and see/do things. We still have to be very aware of where we leave things on the counter, but he absolutely loves climbing up and down the thing and has mostly learned by now not to touc…

Ha. Wait and see - in another 6 months he'll be using it a stepping stone to climb up onto the counter and get into stuff that used to be out of reach.

Re: The Case for Rooms

#109

Post by TomVDB »

jpm_sd wrote: post #14

The historical context portion of the article is interesting and well written, but the critique of the open-concept layout at the end seemed rushed and unconvincing. Anyone here who lives in a modern open-concept house care to comment? I currently live with my wife, 3 children and 2 dogs in a 1200 square foot split level and we all dream of a big open-concept house some day... but apparently some people are getting t…

Family of 3 in a 2100 sq.ft. open concept house.

We have one wall the adds separation between a family room and the dining place, and we're in the process of adding a hole in it (though the reason is increased light.)

In general: we love it.

The article is right about the enormous energy inefficiency of it all. We have no way to separate living room/dining room/kitchen/family room from each other, so we're heating the whole thing in the winter.

It's also true that sounds travels everywhere, but in our case, with only 1 kid, that's not a problem.

Re: The Case for Rooms

#110

Post by wtvanhest »

humanrebar wrote: post #63
alkonaut wrote: post #7

The open (Kitchen) floor plan to me represents the idea that cooking isn’t a chore separate from eating and socializing. I want to cook for an hour without being alone. Privacy in the kitchen would never be desireable. “Entertaining” doesn’t require guests. There is also a matter of space. A shared living/dining/cooking space can use a lot less space than three separate rooms. I couldn’t afford the separate solution…

> I want to cook for an hour without being alone. Privacy in the kitchen would never be desireable. When you have small kids: - You want them away from boiling water, dropped knives, and dangerously hot ovens. - You want them to keep sleeping even though you're vacuuming - You might want to let them watch Baby Shark for the 1000th blasted time while leaving you out of it - You might want to read a novel while they ho…

I have an 8 month old and a kitchen separate from our living room. When I am cooking, he is forced to sit in a highchair. I wish he could be playing on the other side of the counter while I cook instead.
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