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People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

fuqua.duke.edu

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Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#81
post #5

If you hate your job, someone may be taking advantage of you. If you love your job, someone may be taking advantage of you. Someone may be taking advantage of you. Or not. Who knows?

In capitalism, by definition you are compensated less than the work you put in. The leftover is called "Surplus". And that is divvied up between the board,C levels, and shareholders (sometimes). The surplus is never split up to the ones who actually do the work. I'm sure the complaint will be that I'm calling for state socialism. Nope. I'm calling for worker coops, and worker owned businesses. That way, we the worker…

Who supplies the capital for worker co-ops? That's the problem, as I see it. Yeah, workers lose out on the surplus in typical company. However, workers aren't risking their own capital. If the company goes bankrupt, the worker only loses their job, not their investment (unless they took equity as part of a compensation package).

Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In capitalism, by definition you are compensated less than the work you put in. The leftover is called "Surplus". And that is divvied up between the board,C levels, and shareholders (sometimes). The surplus is never split up to the ones who actually do the work. I'm sure the complaint will be that I'm calling for state socialism. Nope. I'm calling for worker coops, and worker owned businesses. That way, we the worker…

> "to the ones who actually do the work" who gets to define what constitutes work?

It's pretty easy, if the person disappears, are the goods/services still provided? If so, then that person did not do anything which constituted work.

Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#84
post #5

If you hate your job, someone may be taking advantage of you. If you love your job, someone may be taking advantage of you. Someone may be taking advantage of you. Or not. Who knows?

In capitalism, by definition you are compensated less than the work you put in. The leftover is called "Surplus". And that is divvied up between the board,C levels, and shareholders (sometimes). The surplus is never split up to the ones who actually do the work. I'm sure the complaint will be that I'm calling for state socialism. Nope. I'm calling for worker coops, and worker owned businesses. That way, we the worker…

> I'm calling for worker coops, and worker owned businesses

I'm not being argumentative here; I just want to point out that Not everyone is Brilliant and Extraordinary, at least Not in their job. On the other hand--some people are.

On a personally note: a huge deciding factor in my getting out of a family business was due to an association that my late father had with a competitor. Yes he was much older, and of course more experienced, but I knew I could not compete with him. Period, end of story.

Furthermore, from the ten years I did run that business (and successfully by most metrics), I also met other people who ran other types of businesses, that were also just ridiculously talented at their work. People like that have almost a Sixth Sense about what to do, and what not to do and when to do it. I may have that in certain arenas, But I did not posses it in that family business.

Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#85
post #70
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this entire forum demonstrates a chronic pessimism by rejecting the idea that a deal can be a 'win-win', that somehow both participants in the deal can benefit and the world is non-zero

I think that my comment, and the one you're directly replying to, are both describing win-win situations.

Yes you're right and I was not saying otherwise. I was trying to point out that it's more the exception than the rule. The entire other 99% of the thread, and the OP topic itself is suggesting that relationships can only be win-lose

Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#86

Since nobody is actually reading the article, let me sum it up: In a survey of regular people (not EvilCorp CEOs), "people consider it more legitimate to make passionate employees leave family to work on a weekend, work unpaid, and handle unrelated tasks that were not in the job description." "This finding extended to asking for work far beyond the job description, including leaving a day at the park with family and…

" In one study, participants who read that an artist was strongly passionate about his job said it was more legitimate for the boss to exploit the artist than those who read the artist wasn’t as passionate."

If you know someone who loves painting and a mural needs to be painted on Saturday, is it really crazy to think it's less bad to ask them to paint the mural than it would be to ask someone who has no passion for it at all? The question is not "Would you prefer a world in which we ignored the differences in passion and decided to never exploit anyone at all?", the questions is "Which is worse?". It does not say anything at all about whether people think these things are OK. If I tell you killing one person is less bad than killing two, that doesn’t mean I think killing people is OK.

"Participants read about a Ph.D. student’s working relationship with their graduate advisor. Those who read a scenario in which the student was being exploited – verbally abused and given unreasonable deadlines – rated the student as likely to be more passionate than students who weren’t being exploited."

Isn't that true though? If there's an identical distribution of passion across advisors at the start of the program and passion is negatively correlated with deciding to drop out in response to an exploitative advisor, people with exploitative advisors are therefore likely to be (although may not individually be) more passionate. It's essentially just asking if passionate people are more likely to continue towards a goal even in an exploitative environment, and has nothing to do with whether that is a good thing.

Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In capitalism, by definition you are compensated less than the work you put in. The leftover is called "Surplus". And that is divvied up between the board,C levels, and shareholders (sometimes). The surplus is never split up to the ones who actually do the work. I'm sure the complaint will be that I'm calling for state socialism. Nope. I'm calling for worker coops, and worker owned businesses. That way, we the worker…

Who supplies the capital for worker co-ops? That's the problem, as I see it. Yeah, workers lose out on the surplus in typical company. However, workers aren't risking their own capital. If the company goes bankrupt, the worker only loses their job, not their investment (unless they took equity as part of a compensation package).

The workers of course - most small to medium sized law firms are worker co-ops where new members 'buy a seat', effectively adding their share of the working capital

Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#88

Since nobody is actually reading the article, let me sum it up: In a survey of regular people (not EvilCorp CEOs), "people consider it more legitimate to make passionate employees leave family to work on a weekend, work unpaid, and handle unrelated tasks that were not in the job description." "This finding extended to asking for work far beyond the job description, including leaving a day at the park with family and…

" In one study, participants who read that an artist was strongly passionate about his job said it was more legitimate for the boss to exploit the artist than those who read the artist wasn’t as passionate." If you know someone who loves painting and a mural needs to be painted on Saturday, is it really crazy to think it's less bad to ask them to paint the mural than it would be to ask someone who has no passion for…

> Isn't that true though?

Not in the real world.

1. Like in any organization, the boss exploits the workers he doesn't like more than those he likes. Who he likes might be based a random factor like sense of humor/gender than ability.

2. People rarely drop out of phd programs (single digit percentage at most in my experience) because they don't want to fail. So, in actuality, the drop out rate difference exploitative advisors and good ones is too small to be significant.

3. Somewhat contrary to point 1., passionate students are usually better than uninspired students, and so passionate students usually have more leverage than the uninspired. They can switch advisors or schools - making the advisor look bad. In my experience the exploited ones are usually those who are in the bottom half of ability.

4. Its very difficult for advisors to "fire" a student usually. It reflects badly on them, and they usually have to go through a painful review process with the university to explain why the student was asked to leave. Therefore, advisors will usually treat horribly the students they don't like so they leave on their own accord.

Re: People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study

#89
I remember there are arguments that motherhood is seen as unpaid work. I wonder if there is a connection here with that. There seems to be a stronger shift in the past ten years or so where mothers are increasingly called out on being a "bad mother". Is there some relation there with the cultural attitudes on exploiting passion?
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