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One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

pharmatimes.com

21–30 of 236 posts

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State of the art MRI machine costs $3 million up front. Would take 20 scans a week, every week, for 10 years to break even on that investment at $300 per scan. Not counting physician & staff time or cost of capital.

Yes but you don't do 20 scans a week, you do that per day

Isn't 20 scans a day something like 15 hours of continuous, back-to-back scanning?

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#22

> preferred by patients and involving less exposure to radiation I thought MRIs didn't have any radiation exposure as opposed to X-Rays and CT scans; unsure about this benefit of less exposure to radiation from 1 whole-body MRI vs multiple MRIs (should be the same IMO)

Not the greatest article. From another one: "Standard NHS pathways often involve different imaging techniques - such as CT, PET-CT or focused MRI scans - which vary in accuracy in different organs."

... so they do targeted scans (with radiation risk) as their normal practice. That kind of makes sense, since the resolution of those scans is much better than WB-MRI.

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#23
post #13

Many doctors hate full body scans. Every individual has a handful of anomalies which are almost always benign. They show up on full body scans and chasing them down comes with cost and patient risk. I have a hard time with reporting like this that doesn't quantify cost of biopsy on false-positives as well as cost of complications from examining false-positives. Source: worked in clinical research for 2 years.

This sounds to me like doing a full workup on blood chemistry. Individuals vary so much that you can get false positives.

Wouldn't it be more useful as a baseline? Scan once and store it, then scan every few years and compare. If any of the "anomalies" has grown or new ones have appeared between scans, then they might be worth a second look?

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#24
post #13

Many doctors hate full body scans. Every individual has a handful of anomalies which are almost always benign. They show up on full body scans and chasing them down comes with cost and patient risk. I have a hard time with reporting like this that doesn't quantify cost of biopsy on false-positives as well as cost of complications from examining false-positives. Source: worked in clinical research for 2 years.

Similarly, the doctor who discovered Prostate Specific Antigen regrets that is used to screen for prostate cancer because of its inaccuracy, questionable benefits and substantial harm created by biopsies and treatment of prostate cancer:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/opinion/10Ablin.html

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#25
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State of the art MRI machine costs $3 million up front. Would take 20 scans a week, every week, for 10 years to break even on that investment at $300 per scan. Not counting physician & staff time or cost of capital.

Only 20 scans a week? A scan takes 30-60 minutes. So even if they only work 8 hour days and assume an hour for lunch/flex that's 35 scans per 5 day week. If they use it on weekends at all or run it for more than eight hours, that's just gravy. I'm not sure where you got the 20 scans a week number.

Because scans are not booked wall to wall every hour of every day. Needs more likely follow a poisson distribution with ample waits in between uses.

To try and pack it that densely, with the large variation in how people show up at the hospital, would cause bottlenecks and loss of service.

20 a week is a more common number for most places.

Here's actual data [1] measured on site. The usage is indeed around 50%, so the 20 is a much better answer.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/MRI-scanner-utilization-...

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#26
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State of the art MRI machine costs $3 million up front. Would take 20 scans a week, every week, for 10 years to break even on that investment at $300 per scan. Not counting physician & staff time or cost of capital.

Only 20 scans a week? A scan takes 30-60 minutes. So even if they only work 8 hour days and assume an hour for lunch/flex that's 35 scans per 5 day week. If they use it on weekends at all or run it for more than eight hours, that's just gravy. I'm not sure where you got the 20 scans a week number.

Yep, places I've work with have usually two shifts and at least one scan an hour. So, easily, 20 scans a day.

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 20 scans a week? A scan takes 30-60 minutes. So even if they only work 8 hour days and assume an hour for lunch/flex that's 35 scans per 5 day week. If they use it on weekends at all or run it for more than eight hours, that's just gravy. I'm not sure where you got the 20 scans a week number.

Because scans are not booked wall to wall every hour of every day. Needs more likely follow a poisson distribution with ample waits in between uses. To try and pack it that densely, with the large variation in how people show up at the hospital, would cause bottlenecks and loss of service. 20 a week is a more common number for most places. Here's actual data [1] measured on site. The usage is indeed around 50%, so th…

40% utilization means that it was in use for 67 hours per week. I don't think an MRI takes three hours.

(In the case of the study listed, the utilization figures might be out of ~35 hours, which would make things different - but they also exclude scans scheduled in advance)

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but you don't do 20 scans a week, you do that per day

Isn't 20 scans a day something like 15 hours of continuous, back-to-back scanning?

Are you saying that you wouldn't have your multi-million dollar imager running as much as possible?

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#29
post #13

Many doctors hate full body scans. Every individual has a handful of anomalies which are almost always benign. They show up on full body scans and chasing them down comes with cost and patient risk. I have a hard time with reporting like this that doesn't quantify cost of biopsy on false-positives as well as cost of complications from examining false-positives. Source: worked in clinical research for 2 years.

Why do doctors advocate less frequent scans when they see that frequent scans creates false positives? Can a metric be invented such that a doctor can make a solid decision "I'm 99% sure this wont kill you in two years" and leave the tumour alone?

Re: One whole-body MRI could replace multiple cancer scans

#30
My wife has had full body scans every 3 months for the past 3 years. She currently has multiple active sites of bone mets, from the spine to shoulders and hips. A single scan is much more convenient and keeps the oncologist up to date with the state of her cancer.

In our experience sometimes a new cancer site isn't diagnosed quickly, especially if it's asymptomatic and slow growing. Having past scans and reviewing them overtime has found multiple tumors so far.

Seems the radiographers err on the side of caution when feeding back to the Oncologist. Her last cancer in her neck (c2) had been tracked over 3 scans (because it was small and slow growing), before it was reported back to us and subsequently treated with cyberknife.

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