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Linux distros without systemd

ungleich.ch

221–230 of 449 posts

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. So what use cases is Docker good for? Why is it so popular if systemd suffices?

Cross platform stuff? Docker allows you to do many things on Windows and Linux. I’m not arguing that this is worth the overhead, or even a useful feature in practice (most companies and products tend to pick one environment and stick to it), but one that comes to mind that systemd would likely never have.

The cross-platform stuff is interesting... however, in practice almost everything outside Linux containers is only weakly supported. You have to jump through some hoops to use alpha/nightly builds of Docker hand installed in Windows 2019 or later Win10 builds in order to support both Linux and Windows containers on a single system. I think the work with WSL2 may make things better better as a result.

The naming in Windows and Mac, along with the limitations of the Desktop implementation are also frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I really like Docker as an orchestration base, I just don't think the cross-platform support is a value add in practice and in fact detracts as a whole imho.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#222

If you are still arguing about systemd, you don't know enough about it, so you should learn about it and you don't understand the big picture. Users crying about Linux desktop all the time, but systemd has a huge part making the situation way better.

> Users crying about Linux desktop all the time, but systemd has a huge part making the situation way better.

Definitely. Maybe it's not great that GNOME has a hard dependency on systemd ( I personally don't care), but most people don't appreciate how much things have improved on the desktop with systemd.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#223
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, people don't like systemd because they don't like change, and groups like shitting on other groups of people? I'm not sure the presenter is condescending enough. Maybe he should have given an abbreviated history of Unix as well, oh wait, he did that.

Change is good. Let's change away from systemd.

Come up with something demonstrably better then. Nobody is stopping you.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#224

The most recent reason I found to hate systemd was it replaced my system DNS resolver with its own (thus requiring me to modify /etc/systemd/resolved.conf, and doing the daemon-reload-service-restart-hokey-pokey, to get a host to function on a network+VPN like it did before). The only reason systemd has its own resolver is they wanted extra DNS functionality. Did I ask for these features? Did I want a new resolver? N…

Debian shipping this despite the obvious backlash was the whole reason I jumped ship too, that and the frequent boot failures and looooong timeouts (which I'm sure someone will be happy to tell me are my own fault).

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memory safety is not the alpha and omega of programming languages. People do not write million lines of code applications in bash, for a reason, trade-offs are to be made. That said I agree they should have picked Go instead /s.

Rust would have been more appropriate. Something like SystemD at such a low level in terms of hardware and service management should not be done in a language with a garbage collector imho.

systemd predates Rust by a bit over a year.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memory safety is not the alpha and omega of programming languages. People do not write million lines of code applications in bash, for a reason, trade-offs are to be made. That said I agree they should have picked Go instead /s.

Rust would have been more appropriate. Something like SystemD at such a low level in terms of hardware and service management should not be done in a language with a garbage collector imho.

> Lennart Poettering and Kay Sievers started the project to develop systemd in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#History

> Mozilla began sponsoring the project in 2009[16] and a nnounced it in 2010.

> The first numbered pre-alpha release of the Rust compiler occurred in January 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(programming_language)#Hi...

Look, I like Rust and all, but are we really suggesting it for projects that predate public release of rustc?

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#227
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's the non-determinism that's the problem as I said, I can fix the issues one by one as I notice them, but if they only occur 1 boot in 10, or maybe 1 in 100 it's miserable and a much less reliable system than before but hey, the systems now boot 2 seconds faster (if they boot at all...)

Again, you already had a problem. It might not have been as obvious because it was enough slower to avoid the race condition under normal circumstances but I’ve hit those problems many times over the years.

Again, I've said that I know there are issues, that I end up discovering one at a time.

the problem is not the issues themselves, as once I know they're there I can trivially google for how to fix them, it's the fact they don't show up except sometimes

I do not care about boot speed at all, I care that I upgrade the system to a new distro release with systemd, test it, then it continues to work that way until I change something else

this is no longer the case, and in 20 odd years of maintaining systems I've never had as much "fun" before as I've had over the last couple of years with systemd

I just want my systems to boot, run my simple applications, then shutdown when I ask them to

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have a track record of labeling serious bugs as non-issues, ignoring them, or just not filing them as CVEs. Serious issues keep coming up. Additionally, this is not likely to stop, since they took an init system that was (mostly) written in a memory-safe language (bash) and rewrote it in a memory-unsafe language (C++), thus enabling a whole class of systemic security issues that will keep popping up in the fut…

Bash is memory safe until you run 'rm -rf $DIR/' when DIR is unset. Let's just say the language choice went from bad to equally bad.

If you run or write that command into script without checking what DIR variable contains, the problem is in your lack of experience with shell, not the language choice. Also nowadays, rm itself has --preserve-root as default, so this won't delete your root fs.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#229

I get that not everybody likes systemd, but a lot of the criticisms seem misguided and looking at sysvinit with role-colored glasses. For example, people are complaining about logind being included, but forget that consolekit was unmaintained before that. Yes, there's parts to systemd that not everyone will use, like container support, but in that case you can pretty safely ignore that use case. For me, systemd has p…

Most of the problem I have it is with the imperialistic culture that came with it and with the serious security bugs that they keep sweeping under the rug. It is easier to configure and is convenient to have one holistic system in a lot of ways, but... They pushed for Gnome to have a hard dependency on it so that everyone would be _forced_ to use it instead of just letting it be accepted by merits. They have a track…

> Most of the problem I have it is with the imperialistic culture that came with it and with the serious security bugs that they keep sweeping under the rug.

The 'Imperialistic Culture' you speak of is one of those made-up things that systemd haters keep repeating, but has no basis in reality.

> They pushed for Gnome to have a hard dependency on it so that everyone would be _forced_ to use it instead of just letting it be accepted by merits.

Again, another fairy tail.

> They have a track record of labeling serious bugs as non-issues, ignoring them, or just not filing them as CVEs. Serious issues keep coming up.

A) This is par for the course in Linux software. See also: Linux kernel. One side you have is a bunch of security bros running around trying to fluff up their resumes and trying to turn themselves into heros. And on the other side you have devs working hard on various features and bugs and being resentful that most of their work goes unnoticed while stuff they already fixed is thrown back in their face.

B) Many of the bugs that make it onto Reddit/Hacker news are going to be ones that are largely changes in configuration defaults or behaviors that break things and are meant to be configured by the operating system designers that use it, not end users.

C) This level of scrutiny never existed before for low-level Linux features. The multitude of redundent and terrible shell scripts that made up the majority of functionality that systemd project seeks to replace was always a swampy mess of broken functionality and bad code. Having each and every major linux distribution rewriting 90% of it from scratch in a completely un-portable and estoric way didn't help matters.

Linux advocates actually went so far as to praising the fact that even though half of the scripts in their OS were completely broken and the OS still worked fine was a testament to it's robustness.

The fact that now, finally, after decades of this crap people can now track bugs related to low-level Linux userland 'plumbing' is actually a good thing.

> It is easier to configure and is convenient to have one holistic system in a lot of ways, but...

On the sysvinit side you had thousands and thousands of lines bunch of procedural code of dubious quality that is endlessly rewritten by hundreds of different teams with vastly differing levels of competency and success using a general purpose language for configuration. It was so unportable that you couldn't even use anything but the most basic and trivial (also broken) init scripts from one distribution to another without herculean levels of effort.

On the other side you have a even driven OS configuration and management engine that allows people to describe the state they want the OS to be in via a domain specific configuration language. It has managed to standardize the low level plumbing for Linux operating systems and allows distributions to share improvements with one another in a way that was previously impossible.

If people want a alternative to gain in popularity they need learn what systemd does and understand why Linux distribution makers switched to it. Then produce something of their own that takes those positive features and improves on it further.

All the hand waiving about 'Imperialism via releasing open source software to the public' is infantile.

The upside of all of this is that it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to make systemd unit files portable then it is to make Linux init shell scripts. There isn't any reason why a more capable init system wouldn't be able to parse existing unit files and know then how to start and manage the services and applications that use them... So the effort to move away from systemd should be significantly less then the effort to move to systemd.

Re: Linux distros without systemd

#230
post #222

If you are still arguing about systemd, you don't know enough about it, so you should learn about it and you don't understand the big picture. Users crying about Linux desktop all the time, but systemd has a huge part making the situation way better.

> Users crying about Linux desktop all the time, but systemd has a huge part making the situation way better. Definitely. Maybe it's not great that GNOME has a hard dependency on systemd ( I personally don't care), but most people don't appreciate how much things have improved on the desktop with systemd.

I've been using linux since kernel 2.2. Deployed hundreds if not thousands of workstations for home users and developers. Trust me, I've seen desktop ups and downs, and I disagree. Systemd works until it doesn't, and then it's an unfixable lost cause and you reload it like a naughty 9x box.
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