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China’s new ‘social credit system’

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Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#61

Post by village-idiot »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #56
icebraining wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much, if not most, of the rest of the world doesn't have a credit score either.

You mean the US-style credit score, right? Because I can't imagine a country that has banks giving out loans without at least credit worthiness analyses that are essentially credit scores, but lazily computed. And lazily-computed credit score is still credit score. E.g. in Poland, we don't have "credit score", except that the bank will happily calculate it for itself whenever you ask for a loan, which means we have t…

The historical norm for credit has always been offering up possessions as collateral. You don’t need a complicated credit scoring system, or reliable enforcement mechanisms for debt & fraud, you just sell off the collateral if the customer doesn’t pay the loan.

This is exactly the function that pawn shops provide in the West, although their usage has dropped significantly since the introduction of consumer credit.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#62

Post by dsfyu404ed »

rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

>The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea

Any systemic attempt to direct the development of culture by the government is a terrible idea. The government should reflect the people. The people should not be nudge, cajoled or forced into accepting the culture the government wants them to have.

The line blurs when you actually have a democratically elected government (is the will of the government the will of the people) but I think it suffices to say that china's social credit system would cross it.

>nearly universal social indoctrination and social credit systems—organized religion.

The church doesn't record your every misdeed and every major religion includes some strong message of forgiveness for misdeeds. It's not the middle ages anymore so the church can't bar you from doing things under threat of violence like the government can. This comparison is crazy on so many levels.

>We regularly talk about neighbors who display antisocial behaviors

Any neighborhood that includes people who say things like this in a context other than to parodying the hyper-conformity you find in some of the better off parts of the US and Europe (think stuffy HOAs and local councils) is a massive red flag that your neighborhood is somewhere no freedom loving person would ever want to live.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#63

Post by wyattpeak »

quadcore wrote: post #54
rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

Culture matters. So what you're saying is that humans have no rights. If humans have rights, then there is a point where culture doesn't matter.

What is a human right, outside of culture? Unless you're religious, what could it possibly be?

There are rights we consider so important that they all but transcend culture, but that "all but" is critical. It's only a matter of consensus, not celestial fiat.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#64

Post by dsfyu404ed »

village-idiot wrote: post #57
raxxorrax wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a very clean city and we don't need social credit systems to handle litter. The jump so many people take to encourage strong enforcement for bagatelles is astonishing. Greece also has a lot of bribes but if you would know anything about the culture, you probably wouldn't conclude that you have to liberate the country. Well, I at least hope so... You can use the stick of course, but loosing that, all benefit…

The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust. Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling. I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of arms.

>Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling.

So? They have their culture and it works well enough for them. They might not be the richest country in Europe and they're still digging themselves out of an economic hole but there's not much else about them that's worth complaining about. It sure beats living your life under the thumb of the government.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#65

Post by [deleted] »

wyattpeak wrote: post #63
quadcore wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture matters. So what you're saying is that humans have no rights. If humans have rights, then there is a point where culture doesn't matter.

What is a human right, outside of culture? Unless you're religious, what could it possibly be? There are rights we consider so important that they all but transcend culture, but that "all but" is critical. It's only a matter of consensus, not celestial fiat.

[deleted]

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#66

Post by raxxorrax »

village-idiot wrote: post #57
raxxorrax wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a very clean city and we don't need social credit systems to handle litter. The jump so many people take to encourage strong enforcement for bagatelles is astonishing. Greece also has a lot of bribes but if you would know anything about the culture, you probably wouldn't conclude that you have to liberate the country. Well, I at least hope so... You can use the stick of course, but loosing that, all benefit…

The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust. Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling. I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of arms.

That probably has other reasons beyond their culture and probably more to do with what was imposed on them. The bribing I was talking about is a phenomenon like giving tips. But that isn't the topic and not the core of the statement.

Increasing social trust through surveillance is like traversing space on a bicycle. Not even that because surveillance probably has a direct massive negative effect on social trust.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#67

Post by dsfyu404ed »

wyattpeak wrote: post #63
quadcore wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture matters. So what you're saying is that humans have no rights. If humans have rights, then there is a point where culture doesn't matter.

What is a human right, outside of culture? Unless you're religious, what could it possibly be? There are rights we consider so important that they all but transcend culture, but that "all but" is critical. It's only a matter of consensus, not celestial fiat.

Pretty much every culture has some notion of a right to due process, personal freedom and personal property. The people of rural Afghanistan may draw the lines in different places than we do but these rights in some capacity are fundamental to all human civilizations.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#68

Post by TeMPOraL »

village-idiot wrote: post #61
TeMPOraL wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the US-style credit score, right? Because I can't imagine a country that has banks giving out loans without at least credit worthiness analyses that are essentially credit scores, but lazily computed. And lazily-computed credit score is still credit score. E.g. in Poland, we don't have "credit score", except that the bank will happily calculate it for itself whenever you ask for a loan, which means we have t…

The historical norm for credit has always been offering up possessions as collateral. You don’t need a complicated credit scoring system, or reliable enforcement mechanisms for debt & fraud, you just sell off the collateral if the customer doesn’t pay the loan. This is exactly the function that pawn shops provide in the West, although their usage has dropped significantly since the introduction of consumer credit.

That may be, but the most popular credit these days is probably mortgage loan, and I haven't heard of those being given on a collateral, at least not to regular people buying their first home. Same with consumer credit, so at this point I'm not convinced that most of the world really doesn't have (possibly lazy) credit scoring.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#69

Post by Millennium »

In a society that does not put enough pressure on people to grow up and function, it is tempting to look at this as a possible solution. Coupling it to government power, though, is an outright horror. Any social credit system needs to be run independently, by society, not by the state (not least because of people's unfortunate tendency to remember that there is a difference).

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#70

Post by [deleted] »

wyattpeak wrote: post #63
quadcore wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture matters. So what you're saying is that humans have no rights. If humans have rights, then there is a point where culture doesn't matter.

What is a human right, outside of culture? Unless you're religious, what could it possibly be? There are rights we consider so important that they all but transcend culture, but that "all but" is critical. It's only a matter of consensus, not celestial fiat.

[deleted]
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