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China’s new ‘social credit system’

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Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#31
The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, versus what you might see in Bangladesh. These virtuous behaviors are a better way to live and make life better for everyone. China seems to realize that and be trying to change culture in a systematic way. It should probably be done more by carrot than stick, but there is a a kernel of a good idea in there.

(I should note that Western countries had their own large-scale nearly universal social indoctrination and social credit systems—organized religion. Indoctrinating virtuous behaviors is a social function that needs to happen, the question is how do you do it. Note also that Chinese cities exist at a scale where the informal mechanisms for social credit break down. If you litter on my street, people will see you and they will notice. We regularly talk about neighbors who display antisocial behaviors. In New York? Outside maybe your condo board there are no such mechanisms.)

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, that's Orwellian. As described in the book. It's not the cameras, the government agents in the shadows or the spying technology... It's the end result of everyone spying on each other that made the world of 1984 so inescapable to Winston.

You don't have to go to a book of fiction to get an example. Some Chinese are still old enough to remember the Cultural revolution. During this time people were interrogated for days by their peers in so called 'struggle meetings' in an attempt to change their supposed incorrect behaviour. Reporting someone as a bourgeois person could cause them to disappear.

The soviet satellite republics strike me as another real world 1984 dystopia. You can watch whole movies about the terrifyingly real East German Stasi.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#34
post #4
post #2

Does anyone have visit China and presence the social system in first person? I've heard that some people like it (Chinese co-workers), as they feel everyone acting better, but they don't live in China at the moment.

I guess they do not realise what is coming? > '...one of the ways that people can improve their own social credit score is to report on the supposed misdeeds of others.'

People are easily manipulated. You only need the right incentives and tricks.

As long as they are convinced or can be convinced that only bad people will be prosecuted (they are good people after all, right?) many people will welcome this.

Reminder: Why do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide?

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#35
post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

There is no good idea inside constant surveillance.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#36
post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

I live in a very clean city and we don't need social credit systems to handle litter.

The jump so many people take to encourage strong enforcement for bagatelles is astonishing.

Greece also has a lot of bribes but if you would know anything about the culture, you probably wouldn't conclude that you have to liberate the country. Well, I at least hope so...

You can use the stick of course, but loosing that, all benefits it brought you would be lost too. And you would have stripped any opportunities to develop any understanding.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to go to a book of fiction to get an example. Some Chinese are still old enough to remember the Cultural revolution. During this time people were interrogated for days by their peers in so called 'struggle meetings' in an attempt to change their supposed incorrect behaviour. Reporting someone as a bourgeois person could cause them to disappear.

The soviet satellite republics strike me as another real world 1984 dystopia. You can watch whole movies about the terrifyingly real East German Stasi.

The Securitate (The secret service of Romania) would be another equally terrifying example.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#38
post #35
post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

There is no good idea inside constant surveillance.

Our successful societies originated in a state of constant (public) surveillance. When you do something in public in small town USA, people see you and that information ripples through the informal social networks. Historically, institutions like churches and schools facilitated exchange of that information. Those things breakdown when you have Chinese cities with millions of people, most of whom just moved there from somewhere else not that long ago.

It’s not just a problem in China, either. If you drive to DC from Annapolis, you’ll see car after car violating the HOV restriction on US 50. Like 80% of vehicles in the HOV lane are single occupant. How do you solve that? Or people blocking the box in DC? Or people taking lefts from K Street during rush hour, when they are prohibited? There is a cost to all that—it slows things down for everyone and undermines deliberate traffic planning. I’d support, for example, cameras that automatically ticket violators.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#39

China currently doesn't have a "credit score" like most of the rest of the world. They also don't have a national police database so this is their attempt to do both at once. If you look at the information these two things seem to make roughly 90% off your score. Everything else is basically an experiment. Each district is doing it differently to find out what works the best and that will then be merged into what the…

Much, if not most, of the rest of the world doesn't have a credit score either.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#40
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, that's Orwellian. As described in the book. It's not the cameras, the government agents in the shadows or the spying technology... It's the end result of everyone spying on each other that made the world of 1984 so inescapable to Winston.

I would argue the key aspect of something being Orwellian is the redefinition of language such that arguments against the government's position cannot be made anymore. The idea of people being spied on by their neighbours in 1984 comes from real-world examples that Orwell was drawing on at the time (the Hitler Youth and the purges under Stalin). While it is very dystopian, I would classify it as being extreme totalit…

You are absolutely right. I can't edit to correct myself. The redefinition of language is more `Orwellian` than the all-spying.

My point is that the spying in 1984 is most of the time seen as being done by Big Brother and its agents against the people but it was quite clear to me when reading it that it was more about everyone keeping an eye on everyone to report to BB, people were doing the watching and there was no escape (I seem to remember there's a line about how they don't know if the camera work but that doesn't matter because you can't prove it and people could be spied on by anyone anyway).

Maybe it's time I pick it up again.

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