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Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#11

Post by marsrover »

eropple wrote: post #4
marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

I don't understand why your post is so defensive. For years , "tech jobs" were marketed as a way to the upper middle class for a broad swath of people (in America and elsewhere). This was not the doing of "two-bit journalists" (and Steve Lohr has a track record of pretty good work!); it was a concerted effort by tech companies . It's turning out to not really be the case and the successful stories are comparatively f…

You're right, I shouldn't be so harsh towards the writer. I've modified my post.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#12

Post by empath75 »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #3
marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

I'm a sysad in a software business. Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports. And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time. And if you don't work in a protected area (federal, etc), then you can buy card-fil…

There will always be software development work that can’t be done that way because it requires specialized knowledge or cutting edge programming techniques.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#13

Post by seibelj »

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is quite simple for a software pro, but light years beyond what someone untrained could do.

Also, this can be extremely high-impact to a business. Consultancies exist at this technical difficulty making lots of money but also delivering lots of value. Go into a non-tech business, notice how 1000 man hours per month are essentially updating Excel files, automate most of it with a Python or VB script, and save the company hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You don't need to feel attacked or nervous that these jobs exist. "Software [Developer|Engineer|Architect]" has no legal definition and the title is meaningless, which is why hiring developers has overhead where you need to check far beyond what the resume says to assess a candidate's true skill.

It's great that $50-80,000 salary jobs can exist for people who have a modicum of software development talent. I'm very happy for these people.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#14

Post by colordrops »

marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

Just like manufacturing jobs, some software work could be completed by uneducated felons, and some work could only be done by PhD specialists. In fact I work at such a place that has an extremely wide gamut of both software engineers and production staff.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#15

Post by Chyzwar »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #3
marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

I'm a sysad in a software business. Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports. And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time. And if you don't work in a protected area (federal, etc), then you can buy card-fil…

> Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports.

Agile do not make developer replaceable. If anything it empower developers to become on equal footing with everyone else.

> And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time.

I saw projects outsourced to huge teams in India failing to deliver. Reality of software development is that unless you have right mix of experience, skill and people you might never deliver.

Programming require both engineering and creative skills. Some class of problems cannot be brute forced by large number of young bodies.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#16

Post by Alex3917 »

marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

> Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job

The typical tech job is more like someone getting paid 30k a year to delete porn from Facebook or draw boxes around pictures of stop signs.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#17

Post by phkahler »

ellius wrote: post #5
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a sysad in a software business. Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports. And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time. And if you don't work in a protected area (federal, etc), then you can buy card-fil…

I disagree with this completely. Development is not line work, and doing it like line work creates unmaintainable, expensive crap. "The Mythical Man-Month" explains this well. Conceptual coherence is of the utmost importance in effective software systems, and you don't get that by just knocking out stories one-by-one like they're desktop support tickets.

While I agree with you, it's also true that the majority of software in the world is held together with bubble gum and duck tape. That doesn't mean it should not have been written - it solved some problem for someone.

We should not build complex systems that way, but plenty of systems are not very complex.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#18

Post by jstewartmobile »

"Today, Mr. Davis, 27, is a cybersecurity specialist working on an incident response team at the company. He earns above $40,000, more than twice his salary in retail."

Isn't that like what people at Costco make for running a cash register and being friendly?

And who do you think has more job security?

edit: To be less coy about it, if you are any good at this stuff and are only making "above $40k", you are getting f-ed.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#19

Post by 0xDEFC0DE »

ellius wrote: post #5
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a sysad in a software business. Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports. And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time. And if you don't work in a protected area (federal, etc), then you can buy card-fil…

I disagree with this completely. Development is not line work, and doing it like line work creates unmaintainable, expensive crap. "The Mythical Man-Month" explains this well. Conceptual coherence is of the utmost importance in effective software systems, and you don't get that by just knocking out stories one-by-one like they're desktop support tickets.

Updating strings in database/code is line work. Update images on website is line work. Debugging basic issues is line work. I've gotten these tasks as discreet Jira issues, so someone thought it was important enough.

It's fine if line work + hardcore CS positions exist simultaneously. This fighting over the boundaries of where the profession starts and ends is tiring and we should just accept there's a stratification of developer skill levels and start adjusting our attitudes and training accordingly. Development is all of these things because development is a huge job market.

You can't abstract your way out of doing the line work and only have hardcore CS positions in the job market.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#20

Post by eropple »

devoply wrote: post #10
eropple wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why your post is so defensive. For years , "tech jobs" were marketed as a way to the upper middle class for a broad swath of people (in America and elsewhere). This was not the doing of "two-bit journalists" (and Steve Lohr has a track record of pretty good work!); it was a concerted effort by tech companies . It's turning out to not really be the case and the successful stories are comparatively f…

What should be talked about is what's actually the point of jobs. It's not as a means to get work done so corporations can generate profit. Jobs are a tool to organize society. Profit is a side-effect of that but an irrelevant part the primary function of jobs. This concept of jobs as a tool to organize society rather than a way to solve problems using human "capital" or humans as machines or tools for problem solvin…

> What should be talked about is what's actually the point of jobs.

I fully agree, FWIW. Perhaps it's where my interests have typically lain, but as a developer whose primary job has been to automate other tech people--sysadmins mostly, but developers as well--this has been on my mind for about a decade now.

I don't know what the solution is.

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