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Google suspends some business with Huawei

reuters.com

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Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#111
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The open source version of Android is still available. Why wouldn’t that be getting updates?

Will I, as a European customer of Huawei, still get app updates from Google Play and push messages via firebase cloud messaging? Without the Google framework my phone is a brick...

WhatsApp and signal work fine without GCM/FCM, dunno about other apps but WhatsApp it's international standard so you are fine

you can get updates through their own app store AppGallery, but your paid apps are paid through Google, so don't expect them in order store, tying your money to Google ecosystem was bad idea in first place

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#112
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that China will throw Google out. It's a bit of a reminder that Google is under US jurisdiction and there's a point to be made that, no matter what they promise you, if the US wants their data, they get their data. More competition can only be good, if this leads to the Chinese creating a third major platform, I welcome it. If they open source it, they may even have success outside of China.

If you’re Chinese, having another domestic platform is a good and important thing towards self determination. Not so great if you’re American, as they’re playing for winner-takes-all.

"is a good and important thing towards self determination"

This is a lark?

The only thing the CPC is interested in is total and absolute control of the citizenry.

They'd love to have a platform for which they didn't have to monitor with gazillions of staff, and have police on corners to ensure 'government monitoring' is properly installed.

Imagine if the CPC could ensure total thought control without all the overhead?

That is exactly the objective.

There's nothing stopping 1 billion people from developing a mobile platform - or any kind of platform for that matter in 2019.

They can do it now. Or yesterday.

And the 'whole world' could be using it.

Consider for a moment why it's not happening?

Why isn't the entire world using software or hosted solutions for all of our SaaS needs in India and China?

Given that the existential nature of the Chinese economy is intertwined with the CPC, I don't think any good will come of this.

A lot of the comments and thinking abound 'trade with China' are centered around a view that it's a normal economy, but it isn't, so the regular rules don't quite apply.

In the grand grand scheme of things, Huawei is a small thing, we're seeing a realignment of forces given the new reality of China's competitive powers, irrespective of anything else.

It's hard to say where the new equilibrium will land.

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#113

At what point does China just develop its own mobile OS? There seems value in just taking the reigns, and making whatever you create open-source, so that ZTE and all the other Chinese manufacturers can use it as well. Its certainly a major blow to the value of Huawei phones.

Even if they develop a mobile OS, will it be the quality and usefulness of Google services? Android is just linux + google services. Without those, it's hard to make the sell to western audiences, at least.

Google Maps is a masterpiece of engineering and it's hard to imagine that Huawei will be able to compete, near term. If I'm reading the situation right, this might mean the end of Huawei in the western phone market unless something changes.

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#114
In a way, this helps Apple (and other Android vendors) and in a way, it hurts it. Huawei phones recently have shipped market leading cameras that blow pretty much all other Android and iPhone cameras out of the water. They took a commanding lead as a premium device manufacturer. Hurting their non-China markets gives breathing space to others.

However, if I were Apple, I'd be really worried about retaliation. Apple is wholly dependent on manufacturing in China and its supply chain, and even small disruptions could cause huge mounts of pain.

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#115
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's every company in USA, isn't it?

Not every US company already makes business with Huawei - so in that case they wouldn't have to stop selling/buying things, because they never started. E.g. is Microsoft, Apple or Amazon impacted?

The parents said:

>"There should be a wide list of companies to whom this applies now." //

I assumed the "this" was "the USA's trade blacklist". The blacklist applies to all companies AFAICT, though you are right it will probably only affect a small proportion.

Though any USA based company may have bought a Huawei phone, router, or similar, and presumably will not be allowed by law to do so henceforth?

Not sure how things like peering with a company that uses Huawei kit, or something, would work. How deep does it go? Can you buy phone service in countries where the phone supplier has Huawei base stations?

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#116
post #72

I guess this is a thinly veiled attack on China, but I'm a bit confused why there's a feud between the US and China in the first place. Perhaps my ignorance is down to being British and a bit out of the loop, but could someone give a rough outline on what the underlying motives for this are?

Let me give it a shot with actual references, and years of paying attention, not whatever I heard the talking heads say last night.

The US perceives the economic relationship with China to be one way. Prior to the recent trade flair ups, China was given preferential treatment, perhaps as part of a strategy to create a geopolitical ally instead of an enemy through trade. This appeared to be working for several decades with China opening up to the world and giving the appearance of freer markets and more democratization as they became wealthier. As their economy continued to grow and modernize, the trade imbalance between the United States became huge ($539 Billion in imports in 2018, only $120 Billion in exports [0]). This means that each year hundreds of billions of dollars flows directly from the US economy into the Chinese economy. In addition, with President Xi the country appears to be sliding back towards a nationalistic totalitarianism.

While both countries can still benefit from this trade, the US government is taking the stance that China has been benefiting and the US has not. The reasons that are most often cited are that the US was open to almost all Chinese imports, while many US imports were restricted or taxed more heavily than local goods [1]. Worse than that, if a US company wanted to operate in China, they were required to do so through Chinese partners that would own half of a joint venture, and intellectual property would be shared with them. After a short term benefit, all of a sudden the Chinese partner would be running their own factories, and competing against the US company with the US companies own technology. These companies are often state owned and receive funding that is considered to be anti free trade and is generally illegal in most international agreements (see the legal squabbles between Airbus and Boeing for reference). Finally the US company would be squeezed by the Chinese government (national or local), and all sorts of issues that wouldn't impact the local company would mysteriously befall the foreign company. After local Chinese companies were created, funded and protected in China by the Chinese government, they could compete with their former US partners around the world.

Therefore while the US market was open to China, the Chinese market is not really open to the US. Finally, it has been widely known for a long time that China hosts state sponsored industrial espionage units that hack companies around the world and steal intellectual property to provide to Chinese companies[2]. US companies will spend billions of dollars researching how to do something, and then a Chinese company can just start producing it, sometimes even before the US company does. Finally, it seems like laws are not enforced in favor of US victims. If a US company steals and sells Chinese IP, they can be successfully sued in US courts. If a Chinese company steals and sells US IP, no enforcement is taken. This is a huge problem especially for small inventors, the moment they create something they lose the market to cheap Chinese knockoffs, and have no power to protect their brand or invention.

For these reasons and others, China is viewed as having a predatory trade relationship with the United States. I've heard that Huawei in particular is known to have gotten a big jump by outright stealing Cisco's router and selling it[3], and has continued with similar tactics, alongside the accusations that it is essentially an arm of Chinese intelligence services and provides backdoors in their products. I've actually heard from Chinese friends that Huawei was very proud of their ability to steal Cisco's router and it is used as a case study.

And while all this is happening, the US had a special trade relationship with China such that it was cheaper to ship goods to individuals in the US from China, instead of from inside the US itself[4].

So basically a viewpoint that I tend to agree with is that this is all about resetting the trade relationship to a normal one between peers. The US is no longer supporting a third world country, but dealing with a fellow world power that is fully capable of taking care of itself. I am confused myself why it is being portrayed any other way, and what the motivations are for doing so. It seems to me that the US has demands to be treated fairly and have an equal trading relationship (according to their point of view), and if that doesn't happen the US can impose tariffs that will rebalance trade between the two countries.

[0] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-all-the-stuff-the-us... [1] https://www.export.gov/article?id=China-Import-Tariffs [2] (pdf) https://www.fireeye.com/content/dam/fireeye-www/services/pdf... [3] https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-c... [4] https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2017/11/05/how-the-...

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your phone was manufactured by a front for a foreign intelligence service. It was never secure.

American-manufactured devices are probably equally as infiltrated by American foreign intelligence services. Hence why they don't just use a standard Linux distro with open source firmware.

There is no proof of this, but there is tons of proof that China state funds Huawei and has the intent of espionage and IP theft.

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#118
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lineage OS

Lineage isn't good enough on its own. 99% of Lineage OS users also install google play services and the google play store. You need to have a replacement for all of the closed source Google APIs for app developers to use. It's a much bigger undertaking than just recompiling the base OS from source.

> Lineage isn't good enough on its own.

It's good for me¹. I want a device that does no phone home to its mothership outside my control. This requires Googles Services not to be installed.

I don't doubt that many nevertheless still use Googles Services.

¹ compared to Googles Android. I'm still desperately waiting for a device with mainline Linux support without blobs.

Re: Google suspends some business with Huawei

#120

This is likely going to hurt Huawei a lot more than Google. Losing access to latest Android versions or Google apps will make it more difficult for their phones to gain adoption globally.

Huawei is the world's second largest phone manufacturer. It'll hurt Google, and Huawei in Europe/Canada.
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