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Google's Civil War

fortune.com

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Re: Google's Civil War

#91

Post by DFHippie »

fyoving wrote: post #61
DFHippie wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retaliating against whistle blowers is a great way to generate bad PR for yourself. You may disagree that this is whistle blowing. You may view these employees as entitled troublemakers. I expect the googlers doing this view themselves as making personal sacrifices for the greater good. In any case, I doubt Google wants to lose talent to competitors because they are viewed as a hotbed of right-to-workers ideology in…

1. Any bad PR resulting from firing these types would be a one time thing instead of this ongoing situation. 2. Google shouldn't accommodate the delusional and entitled. 3. Labor unions are antithetical to sound economic theory and practice, and no other company in the business supports them.

>Any bad PR resulting from firing these types would be a one time thing instead of this ongoing situation.

Imagine if you could murder troublesome people because that PR hit would be a one-time thing and better than this ongoing situation. There's a reason reputation is a thing.

Re: Google's Civil War

#92

Post by wcarss »

rudolfwinestock wrote: post #78
lawrenceyan wrote: post #69

> at Microsoft, employees say they don’t want to build technology for warfare Does anyone know what exactly Microsoft is doing with the military? Is this like better image recognition for drone strikes / targeting humans or more like providing operating systems for military administration? Because those could both be technically construed as “building technology for warfare” with only the first choice being the actua…

Bill Gates & Paul Allen originally founded Microsoft in Albuquerqe, New Mexico, in order to be reasonably close to Los Alamos because they wanted to get military contracts.

This may not be a disagreement -- but I was under the impression they moved to Albuquerque to work at/with MITS[1], the manufacturer of the Altair, and Microsoft's first customer.

1 -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Instrumentation_and_Tele...

Re: Google's Civil War

#93

Post by jeremysalwen »

pacala wrote: post #25
burtonator wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BEST thing someone can do when you're they're friend is tell you when you're doing something wrong so you can correct your behavior. A real friend speaks out ...

A friend tells you in private, and also cuts you a lot of slack. A jerk berates you in public at every opportunity.

Do you have any idea of the volume of internal complaints that is going on? Obviously not, you only see the things that get leaked.

Re: Google's Civil War

#94

Post by eigenvector »

pjc50 wrote: post #14
fyoving wrote: post #7

I don't understand how someone can proudly be a nuisance to those who sign their paychecks nor how can an employer tolerate any of it, at the very least this situation is unfair to the majority of employees who are just "going to work". Not sure what's behind Google's inaction here, they really shouldn't be worried about the trouble makers defecting to somewhere else that most likely won't tolerate their bullshit.

The whole point of somewhere like Google is that they don't want people who will do what they're told, because such people are only capable of doing what they're told. You can't order someone to innovate unless they have no other choice. Silicon Valley has spent years setting itself up as an inheritor of the counterculture, a place where it's possible to "think different". Employees are given a share of the business…

You say Google et al want people who don't just "do what they're told", yet one of the most distinguishing aspects of these places is a hiring process that specifically selects for people willing to jump through absurd hoops and full buy-in to the corporate mythology that doing this means you are simply better and smarter than anyone who doesn't.

That's not how you foster counterculture. In fact, that's probably why Google went so long without any internal employee conflict.

Re: Google's Civil War

#95

Post by inlined »

Eridrus wrote: post #46
idlewords wrote: post #17

I'd be curious to hear rank-and-file Googlers' views on how this dynamic is playing out within the company. It's in both journalists' and organizers' interests to play it up, so the reality can be hard to discern.

Like every issue, there are those who are obsessed with it, for whom it takes over their lives, and then there is a large swath of people who either agree or not, but do so without much intensity. Since the intensity of most people's beliefs is low and the specific issues are not part of day to day work, it's not really a thing that comes up except when new news breaks and people talk about it at lunch for a day. Whe…

The set may be larger than reported. E.g. I didn’t sign the Maven petition because I was up for promotion and work in Cloud.

Re: Google's Civil War

#96

Post by inlined »

This was a fine recap; I’m surprised more hasn’t leaked to the press. Google’s culture is shifting for the worse, but I won’t give specifics because that would require leaking.

Re: Google's Civil War

#97

Post by idlewords »

inlined wrote: post #95
Eridrus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like every issue, there are those who are obsessed with it, for whom it takes over their lives, and then there is a large swath of people who either agree or not, but do so without much intensity. Since the intensity of most people's beliefs is low and the specific issues are not part of day to day work, it's not really a thing that comes up except when new news breaks and people talk about it at lunch for a day. Whe…

The set may be larger than reported. E.g. I didn’t sign the Maven petition because I was up for promotion and work in Cloud.

I think this is the key question. Is there a "dark matter" of concerned Google employees who would potentially mobilize if pushed too far, or is this just a vocal fringe element in a company with a 100,000 strong work force?

Re: Google's Civil War

#98

Post by icebraining »

deogeo wrote: post #37
icebraining wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The other side does have their incriminating comments published (or parts of them)" Where? I don't see any leaked comments from either side on those links.

Because those links are about the leaked comments of the diversity advocates. Even so, they do contain a quoted comment (though not leaked) - the right-wing "take out". An example of the reverse wasn't hard to find: > "Women, on average, have more openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men (also inter…

> though not leaked

It's a public tweet, in fact. Easy to find along with the rest of the author's opinions and explanations.

> An example of the reverse wasn't hard to find:

That quote is from James Damore's memo, and he has been interviewed by many media organizations, like The Guardian and Business Insider, so I don't see how you can claim he didn't have a chance to explain himself.

Re: Google's Civil War

#99

Post by skybrian »

wswkb wrote: post #82
pjc50 wrote: post #34

> And in an attempt to quell the increase in uncivil interactions on its internal platforms, its new “community guidelines” ban slurs and references to sex acts in any work document Rather surprised that people were getting away with that in the first place. Edit: just realised that, like codes of conduct, the key difference is that now the rule also applies to the people at the top.

I should be able to put, say, "this method is fucking up that variable" in a code comment without a puritan telling me not to do so. Which is funny, as it shows that we're going full circle.

If you think that's bad, wait until you see how nit-picky people get in code reviews. I wouldn't be surprised if there were lint rules for swear words.

If you can't deal with criticism of your code, maybe working at a big tech firm isn't for you?

Re: Google's Civil War

#100

Post by inlined »

inlined wrote: post #96

This was a fine recap; I’m surprised more hasn’t leaked to the press. Google’s culture is shifting for the worse, but I won’t give specifics because that would require leaking.

I would define Google’s troubles or decline in three parts:

1. Outrage over previous sexual misconduct 2. Outrage over Google seeking amoral revenue streams 3. Declination of perks

The first one is just the chickens coming to roost. The second two I’ve always felt we’re due to a transition in CFOs.

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