At this point my MVP version of python is Anaconda-latest.
“Python's batteries are leaking”
281–290 of 420 posts
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#282Hawk Owl is a _fantastic_ dev. She was the main force behind the twisted 2->3 transition. But because she is, she is missing the point of batteries included.
Asyncio is in the stdlib so that we have an official lib and API. The main benefit is that most people now, when looking for async, are not wondering about twisted or gevent or tornado. Most just go asyncio. Most dev efforts go to asyncio. It's the end of the great async war. Is it perfect ? No. And I don't care. It's one thing less to worry about. For those who know what they are doing, you can still choose and pip install twisted, but most people don't, and that's solved. Before that, just choosing the lib was a nighmare, as basically it's a definitive call. Out it on pypi, even with a "stdlib" tag, we go back to the 200X era. And it was not fun.
And the goal for having things like xml/sqlite/ssl without installing anything makes python very useful in a load of situations where you can't install stuff. Sometime you are offline. Sometime you are in a restricted env. Sometime you are not on your machine. Sometime your security protocol is hell. Don't assume people use Python as we do, from our comfortable dev laptop driven by the knowledge of our craft. Python is used in banks, by scientists, in schools, by kids, by poor people in the third world, by geographers and pentesters. The python user base is incredibly diverse, it's why it's so popular: it fits a lot of use cases.
So I see the benefit of having a side version of official modules we can pip install that can move faster. I see the benefit of cleaning the stdlib of old stuff, like the wave module, Template or @static.
But I'm glad I don't have anything to install to generate a uuid or unzip stuff. I'm glad I don't have to worry about twisted anymore (depiste that I did write a book on the topic !).
Also, pip install is NOT simple when you learn the language. I have to spend some time in the classroom, even with adult professionals, to explain the various subtleties of site-packages, import path, py -x on windows, python-pip on linux, -m, virtualenv, header files, etc. before my students become autonomous with it. Without a teachers, this turn into months of bad practices and frustrations.
You'd have to fix that first, way, way before moving stuff to pypi. I do think it should be high priority actually: it affects way more than pip.
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#283Hawk Owl is a _fantastic_ dev. She was the main force behind the twisted 2->3 transition. But because she is, she is missing the point of batteries included. Asyncio is in the stdlib so that we have an official lib and API. The main benefit is that most people now, when looking for async, are not wondering about twisted or gevent or tornado. Most just go asyncio. Most dev efforts go to asyncio. It's the end of the gr…
Having a huge standard library also kills analysis paralysis and lets people be more productive.
If you're in the flow and trying to hack together something, the last thing you need is to lose all momentum to pick a date time library. I've had this issue tons of times with Node and Rust, where I'm not up to date with the current meta and my 30 minute hack job is interrupted 5 minutes in by having to google which library should I use to do an HTTP request. (I've actually lost interest in whatever I was doing a few times because of this.)
Python's stdlib is nobody's favourite, but when you start to get to its limits, you're probably past your flow state, you've written most of the logic and you can spend some time to replace http.client with requests because the latter is much better.
On a tangent note, I've been trying to find another scripting language to replace Python because I'm not a fan of it anymore (I won't get into it right now), and considering what I just wrote, there's not much that can replace it, as most languages have a bare-bones standard library and if you're not up to date with the current best library to do X, you'll never achieve great productivity.
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm glad Windows 10 has OpenSSH now: > Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.17763.437] > (c) 2018 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. > > ssh -V > OpenSSH_for_Windows_7.7p1, LibreSSL 2.6.5
I've found the built-in Windows 10 ssh client has trouble with tunneling, so I still use the ssh client included with git.
If you can figure out how to reproduce the issue, I'm sure the team would accept a bug report at https://github.com/PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where I work, there is currently a push to get python on the computers that manage physical equipment operation. These computers are not allowed to connect to the internet, and have extremely limited connectivity to the rest of the business network. Installing anything new on them requires risk assessments like you wouldn't believe, since the consequences of malicious code could easily hit 10s of millions of dollars…
If your risk assessment says that the exact same tkinter outside of Python stdlib is riskier than in Python stdlib, maybe your risk evaluation process needs reevaluation.
Yes but it won't get it. And at the end if the day, people need to be able to get work done.
The corporate world is full of stupid things that will never not change, or take years to change.
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where I work, there is currently a push to get python on the computers that manage physical equipment operation. These computers are not allowed to connect to the internet, and have extremely limited connectivity to the rest of the business network. Installing anything new on them requires risk assessments like you wouldn't believe, since the consequences of malicious code could easily hit 10s of millions of dollars…
Maybe a stupid question but can you ship code on the machine? If you can, what is stopping you from including the source of the library that you're trying to 'install'?
Many do, but you can get fired for it.
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#287Hawk Owl is a _fantastic_ dev. She was the main force behind the twisted 2->3 transition. But because she is, she is missing the point of batteries included. Asyncio is in the stdlib so that we have an official lib and API. The main benefit is that most people now, when looking for async, are not wondering about twisted or gevent or tornado. Most just go asyncio. Most dev efforts go to asyncio. It's the end of the gr…
> Asyncio is in the stdlib so that we have an official lib and API.
It was pitched first as a common low level async loop for other applications like Twisted and Tornado.
Then people started using it directly and the keywords were added.
It's great for the people who think the way asyncio does, others are now forced to use it. I find all of Twisted, Go and Jane Street's Async easier to use.
Perhaps Python is just the wrong language for me.
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#288If your project has any third-party dependencies, and so (nowadays) you're going to set up requirements.txt and virtualenv and whatever anyway, I can see that you're going to think things like "this XML parser in the standard library is just getting in the way; I can get a better one from PyPi". But I think a lot of the value of a large standard library is that it makes it possible to write more programs without need…
> and so (nowadays) you're going to set up requirements.txt and virtualenv and whatever anyway
If only that were the norm amongst long-tail python users. Heck I don't do it; I have the anaconda distribution installed on Windows and when I need to do a bit of data analysis hope I have the correct version of packages installed.
Making this core to the python workflow (bundling virtualenv? updating all docs to say "Set up a virtualenv first"?) is the first required change, before thinking about unbundling stdlib
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#289> six is non-optional for writing code for Python 2 and 3 I maintain a Python 2 & 3 compatible project that has no external dependencies.
I do similarly as you (maintain 2/3 code without dependencies) but every time I have to do string encoding/decoding it kills me to find a way that half works, and I don't have a ready solution in my mind for these that doesn't break half the time. How do you handle non-ASCII in a compatible manner? Like Unicode stdio? Unicode file paths? Unicode sys.argv? string_escape/unicode_escape? I feel like Python 3 completely…
Everytime I hear somebody claim python 3 broke strings I just cringe.
No. No on just so many levels.
It finally fixed it by introducing two (or three if you count bytearray) types for completely different semantics of data.
Python 2 was just a mess whenever you left ascii.
Re: “Python's batteries are leaking”
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
I do similarly as you (maintain 2/3 code without dependencies) but every time I have to do string encoding/decoding it kills me to find a way that half works, and I don't have a ready solution in my mind for these that doesn't break half the time. How do you handle non-ASCII in a compatible manner? Like Unicode stdio? Unicode file paths? Unicode sys.argv? string_escape/unicode_escape? I feel like Python 3 completely…
Everytime I hear somebody claim python 3 broke strings I just cringe. No. No on just so many levels. It finally fixed it by introducing two (or three if you count bytearray) types for completely different semantics of data. Python 2 was just a mess whenever you left ascii.
Meanwhile I cringe every time I see people say "No" while ignoring the issues people like me point out.