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Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

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Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#61

Post by dahinds »

droithomme wrote: post #42
verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

I agree with what you say but more interesting to me is that the way DNA is used in forensics is pseudoscientific nonsense, along with bite and footprint matching. As a separate issue, this guy is dead and has no ability to defend himself in court such as by providing an alibi. In the Golden State Killer case, the first "match" they found in their cold hit/blind match search (using an extremely small number of 9 to 1…

You seem to think that these cases are being solved using old school CODIS database matching but that's just false. This case and the Golden State Killer case were solved using modern distant relative matching methods that are widely used in the genetic genealogy community and are far more powerful than traditional forensic DNA matching and typically use 500,000 or more markers.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#62

Post by dahinds »

droithomme wrote: post #51
criddell wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the downsides of using databases like ancestry.com to solve crimes?

Forensic testing of DNA looks at 13 positions. 9 out of 13 is considered a match. When you match against a very large database using such a small number of polymorphisms, you get many matches. Detectives then take that list and look for people who lived sort of in the crime area. The matches who don't happen to have an alibi they can prove for a crime sometimes decades ago are then deemed "guilty". It's complete pseu…

These are not conventional forensic DNA tests.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#63

Post by paxys »

droithomme wrote: post #51
criddell wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the downsides of using databases like ancestry.com to solve crimes?

Forensic testing of DNA looks at 13 positions. 9 out of 13 is considered a match. When you match against a very large database using such a small number of polymorphisms, you get many matches. Detectives then take that list and look for people who lived sort of in the crime area. The matches who don't happen to have an alibi they can prove for a crime sometimes decades ago are then deemed "guilty". It's complete pseu…

It's not "pseudoscience" but literally how everything is investigated, DNA or not. There is always a process of elimination, strong vs weak evidence, probable cause, and many more factors. Audio/video surveillance, alibis, even eyewitness reports and just about everything else can be unreliable, incorrect or faked. That's why police gather all kinds of evidence and present it to a jury.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#64

Post by mehrdadn »

mikeash wrote: post #4
verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? I see no problem with exhuming a corpse to solve a murder case as long as there’s probable cause and a warrant, which there was here.

> If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains?

Not speaking for this case in particular, but regarding the general question, maybe it's something you don't want your loved ones to have to think about/go through?

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#65

Post by oh_sigh »

mikeash wrote: post #4
verisimilitudes wrote: post #2

I find it disconcerting that someone's remains would be violated due to being a murder suspect. This is one of many reasons to have your remains cremated, I suppose. It also avoids wasting space in a graveyard and whatnot. I'm beginning to seriously hear people discuss that it's perfectly okay to use DNA people submit in these ways and even that it would be okay for the government to collect trash and other things th…

If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? I see no problem with exhuming a corpse to solve a murder case as long as there’s probable cause and a warrant, which there was here.

"When I'm dead, just throw me in the trash"

-Diogenes of Sinope

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#66

Post by stephenr »

vkou wrote: post #59
mikeash wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? I see no problem with exhuming a corpse to solve a murder case as long as there’s probable cause and a warrant, which there was here.

> If you’re dead, what do you care what happens to your remains? Because our society believes in body autonomy, to the point that it won't use your body's organs to save other human beings, without your express consent. Your body is your property, and it takes a damn good reason for someone else to access your property, contrary to your will.

> Because our society believes in body autonomy

Unless you’re a woman of course.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#67

Post by droithomme »

paxys wrote: post #63
droithomme wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forensic testing of DNA looks at 13 positions. 9 out of 13 is considered a match. When you match against a very large database using such a small number of polymorphisms, you get many matches. Detectives then take that list and look for people who lived sort of in the crime area. The matches who don't happen to have an alibi they can prove for a crime sometimes decades ago are then deemed "guilty". It's complete pseu…

It's not "pseudoscience" but literally how everything is investigated, DNA or not. There is always a process of elimination, strong vs weak evidence, probable cause, and many more factors. Audio/video surveillance, alibis, even eyewitness reports and just about everything else can be unreliable, incorrect or faked. That's why police gather all kinds of evidence and present it to a jury.

> That's why police gather all kinds of evidence and present it to a jury.

There was no jury evaluating evidence and deciding guilt or innocence in this case. There was also no case. Only a proclamation of guilt against a man who died long ago and had no ability to defend himself, no defense attorney assigned, no arguments made before a jury whatsoever. The only "forensic" evidence made by some dodgy startup pushing this story to sell their "services".

That's not justice at all. It's not even a caricature of justice. It's complete and absolute nonsense. Holding this up as an example of a done guilty man found is an atrocity and everyone doing so should be deeply ashamed.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#68

Post by partiallypro »

jayalpha wrote: post #31

From a behavioral perspective it is odd that a guy would do this and then stop doing it.

The "serial killers never stop" is a myth. In fact it's pretty common. Life happens to even the worst people, and they are unable to carry out their previous hobbies... In this car being murder.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#69

Post by droithomme »

dahinds wrote: post #61
droithomme wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you say but more interesting to me is that the way DNA is used in forensics is pseudoscientific nonsense, along with bite and footprint matching. As a separate issue, this guy is dead and has no ability to defend himself in court such as by providing an alibi. In the Golden State Killer case, the first "match" they found in their cold hit/blind match search (using an extremely small number of 9 to 1…

You seem to think that these cases are being solved using old school CODIS database matching but that's just false. This case and the Golden State Killer case were solved using modern distant relative matching methods that are widely used in the genetic genealogy community and are far more powerful than traditional forensic DNA matching and typically use 500,000 or more markers.

David, your claim that these cases used 500,000 markers on both sides of the "match" is absolutely incorrect and 100% total nonsense.

Hey post your evidence that the police presented a full sequence for the match. You know you don't have that data.

Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to formally and publically request that the company you are a high level employee of, 23andme, immediately publish a full disclosure of exactly what they are doing with their victims (sometimes called client's) personal private medical data. Especially with regard to your company's total and complete lack of HIPAA compliance. I'm also interested in your opinion as to whether all or just a portion of your rogue company should be criminally prosecuted and sent to prison for your overt crimes.

Re: Seattle police use family DNA, latest science to identify killer 52 years later

#70

Post by mindcrime »

mikeash wrote: post #12
maxerickson wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about not caring, but I wonder if you've really not noticed that lots of people do care about how remains are handled?

I have, but I’m still going to question it when someone bases a comment on it. In any case, the second half of my comment should apply just as well for such folks. We allow much worse things with a warrant, even from that perspective.

I have, but I’m still going to question it when someone bases a comment on it.

And what do you hope to accomplish by doing so?

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